Making the case to carry Non-Lethal Devices. (NSFW-Language)

The following video shows a pretty stupid and intoxicated young lady basically engaging everyone she dislikes on the street with a low level of violence. You can go ahead and fast forward to 02:20 for the “good part.”

I do not have the story other that it happened in Miami Beach (and that exemplifies why I haven’t been in MB in over a decade) and some young dumb girl ended up kissing South Florida pavement.

There is no doubt that she got way more than she bargained for. Most people attacked adopted a defensive/retreating attitude which was the right thing to do. Unfortunately the last guy had an Ego Override and stopped her antics rather swiftly but I would chance to say , illegally due to disparity of force. The gentleman probably got away with it since the crowd was more interested in the now prone young stupid girl, but such application of was unjustified in my opinion.

The video makes a good case for carrying a Non-Lethal device such as pepper spray. We know it is not 100% effective but it may give you enough time and space to disengage safely without leaving permanent damage. I have come to rethink my favor for electrical devices since they have developed a negative reputation in some public groups and most hand-held devices require for you to get in contact with the attacker which is not tactically sound strategy.

All in all having an alternative to deadly force is a good thing to consider. We are so studious of firearms and deadly force that we commit the sin of omission by not thinking about other ways to de-escalate situations. Time for me to add more crap to my already heavy load.

11 Replies to “Making the case to carry Non-Lethal Devices. (NSFW-Language)”

  1. Okay, I’m going to be all ungentlemanly here and disagree with you.

    I think she got exactly what she deserved. Not a drop less.

    She put herself on the line, she physically attacked several people.
    My folks taught me “Never hit a lady but a lady will never give you a reason to hit her”.

    She was no lady.

    Would you have a problem with a slightly built guy being knocked out by a bigger guy?

    I wouldn’t.

    Acting stupid can and often does hurt.

    As far as less than lethal devices, which would have been appropriate?

    Definitely not OC or other like sprays. The wind and the crowd would have made employing those sprays very problematic.

    A Taser? A better choice but many states treat Tasers the same as firearms.

    Would she have kissed the payment any less if she had been tazed?
    And given her possibly altered mental status, it could have been deadly if she was on meth, speed, etc.

    Nope. An old fashioned punch in the face, in my opinion, was the best choice. It wasn’t a disparity of force but the same force level she was using. OC or Taser could be seen as escalating the force level — not that I’m against doing that.




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  2. Bob, I understand where you are coming from, but a jury might not. She was not applying the same amount of force as she got and that could be a legal problem down the road and that is my point here.

    The pepper spray surely does not apply here since the gentleman had an avenue of escape and that was supposed to be his option instead of just decking her. But in a situation where an easy exit is not possible against somebody less “beefy” than you or me, I think I would rather use pepper spray/gel/foam than actually getting physical or go to deadly force.




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  3. Miguel,

    I’m not sure I understand your view on how she “was not applying the same amount of force as she got?

    She didn’t hit as hard as she was getting hit but that isn’t a legal standard is it?

    She used her hands and other objects — which could be a point against her– and the person who protected himself used his hands.

    How is that not the same level of force?

    I’m not sure that ‘stand your ground’ laws apply here.

    Is the person under attack supposed to turn his back to his attacker?

    No matter how inept her attack was, legally it was an attack.

    As for as the jury, I think that playing the video would be enough to sway them. She repeatedly attacked individuals, frankly I think many juries would agree with me – she got what she deserved.




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  4. She didn’t hit as hard as she was getting hit but that isn’t a legal standard is it?

    Yes. The Use of Excessive Force. To give you an exaggerated example: A slap in the face cannot be countered with a bullet in the head.

    Criminal law allows for the use of necessary and proportionate, non-deadly force in self-defense anytime the victim reasonably believes that unlawful force is about to be used on him.

    The weak ass punches of a drunk 120LB uncoordinated female on high heels do not merit the right hook to the jaw by a 200lbs male.

    Remember, I am not talking about what she deserved, that is another can of worms I am not opening here (specially with some of the ladies I know read this blog) but what can legally put somebody in legal trouble.

    Bob, I am not making myself clear and I want to apologize. I can’t seem to articulate my ideas right today.




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  5. Miguel,

    So what level of force would have been appropriate to stop the attack?

    Looking at the video again; she hit him once and he blocked. And kept walking. She then hit him 4 more times. While she was hitting him, he kept backing away.

    Looking at the tape, it was obvious he was trying to retreat. She wouldn’t stop.

    She punched him several times. He returned one punch. That isn’t excessive use of force. He didn’t stomp her, he didn’t use an object,

    Excessive force would only come into play if he used more than was needed to stop the attack. He didn’t.

    Again. If it was a slight built guy, would you have any trouble with him being knocked out?
    I don’t think so.

    So what level of force could he have used to stop the attack?
    Any use of his hands would legally be the same. If he pushed her or hit her, it is the same legally.




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  6. So what level of force could he have used to stop the attack?

    Run. I don’t care if she is an Olympian, she cannot chase him in high heels. 🙂

    He had the ability to create space between them. Smart move should have been beat hasty retreat. Hard on the old Ego, but legally safe.

    Now, if we are talking gratifying the ego, turn her around and spank her butt hard…. but she might have liked that 😉




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  7. I have to agree with Bob on this one. “Excessive force” in a fistfight- which is what I think this technically is- is a rediculous charge to make. (It’s similar to the Australian bully getting body slammed by his target.) Too, she had been using her purse to strike others, and what’s in the purse? The one being attacked doesn’t know- hell, it could be loaded with sharps.
    Back to the hit- she struck first, second and third, he tried getting away- retaliated when she kept coming. It’s hardly excessive force when one combatant has a better punch than the other- regardless one was a woman. What if the girl was a trained boxer and her oponent wasn’t, and she decked him. Is that ‘excessive force’? Nah- it’s muscle training, skill and directness of action.
    That she got hit by a more directed, superior force, is what she deserved.
    However, in her defense, I will say I think much of this was egged on by the group following her- just trying to stir up trouble with their taunting even after she’d asked them to stop.




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  8. Again we are talking in this specific case.
    She threw 5 punches, all 5 without a lot of power and all 5 were easily blocked by the male. The male responded with a right hook to the jaw.
    She was knocked out and fell to the ground. I’d guess by the way she fell, she hit herself in the head rather bad.

    Let’s say she takes this guy to court and sues for damages. Guess who is gonna show actual injuries to a jury? And who is going to show no injuries?

    So, we have disparity of force, no real damage caused to the guy and a woman that will probably will show up in court in a wheelchair, neck brace and the attorney will show a bunch of pics displaying her bruised face plus any other medical record possible.

    Even if he wins the case, he will lose money, time and get a dose of aggravation defending himself. Worth it? Only if you have money to throw away. His best choice would have been to run away with a bruised self esteem and an intact wallet….. as the previous guys she attacked did.

    We do need a lawyer here to advice us in this matter. Yes, it means you Robert.




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  9. DISCLAIMER: I AM A LAWYER BUT I AM NOT YOUR LAWYER. FREE ADVICE IS WORTH WHAT YOU PAY FOR IT. DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN BALL

    I think the fellow has a poor self-defense argument. You are allowed, when in reasonable fear of imminent harm, and assuming you are not in a situation where you have a duty to retreat, to counter with such force as is necessary to end the threat.

    An annoying, drunken girl tossing ineffectual little jabs does not require a full on punch in the face to end the threat. I think the force was probably disproportionate and and that a reasonable person should have thought the same.

    I will add that you were on to something earlier, when you suggested the better response — albeit one sadly NOT available or defensible under the present state of the law — would have been for him to put her across his knee and give her a sound spanking.




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  10. DISCLAIMER: I’ve known Robert for… geez a decade or more?
    I usually end up having my ass handed over when I argue with him and proves the idiocy of my points which sadly is the immense majority of the cases..




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  11. Suburban Sheepdog,

    I’m not a lawyer and I only have a lay person understanding of the law so if you could help me out here I would appreciate it.

    Is there any legal difference between how a person puts there hands on another — say between pushing her away forcefully and hitting her?

    As I understand the law, without self-defense, both would be classified as assault, right?

    So I don’t understand how disproportionate force plays out. I have never seen ‘effectiveness of punches’ be a consideration.
    Again…if it had been a slightly built man throwing punches, I doubt we would be having this discussion.

    I think the fact that the assailant is female is affecting the discussion.

    She struck him several times, he retreated. He fulfilled, if any duty to retreat, right?

    She kept after him. Could her attacks not have put an eye out?
    How many ‘ineffective punches’ does a person have to let another person throw before fighting back?

    And lastly, again I’ll ask. What level of force would have been legally acceptable to stop the attack?




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