“Real Guns” or the snobbish attitude about certain brands of firearms.

but if you HAD a High Point, you could trade that for a taco at Jack in the Box during a disaster without giving away your real gun. I’m not saying that The Judge was valueless, far from it. You could probably get them to Super Size your Big Mac meal.

This came about during an online discussion and really tweaked me the wrong way. There is a very high level of snob among gun owners about the less than “awesome” brand of firearms and how they are by definition unworthy trash.

The Taururs,  Hi Point, Bryco, the Raven, Jennings etc, apparently belong in a leper colony away from the delicate eyes of gun owners. What specially pisses me off is that although not making it into the Valhala of Guns according to those who “know” they still fulfill a very important role: They go bang and can save a life.

I attribute this attitude to a gun battle lost many years ago in Congress: The prohibition against importing what was considered a low cost, cheaply made sidearm which ended up know as the Saturday Night Specials. Gun owners back then did not mind or gave a care because  they were not “Real Guns” like a proper Colt Python or a custom tricked 1911. But the issue is not the safe queen we can brag about at the range but the need for somebody who is not in the best of economic levels to have something to defend him or herself when the bad guys come ‘a knocking.

When I was starting to date SWMBO I was unaware that her roommate was being stalked by a former boyfriend and both were being the target of a local pervert who would suddenly show up at their townhouse’ back yard, expose & play with himself. By the time cops arrived, he was long gone and was never caught. Both girls were in not very good paying jobs and could not afford a “Real Gun” so they ended up with an used Raven in .25 caliber (I seem to recall they paid $40 for it) just like in the picture below:

raven 25

 

The gun came to play twice: the first time Ex-Boyfriend showed up one Saturday night all stupid and the Raven was aimed at his body. He suddenly remembered he had previous engagements somewhere else and left with a great deal of energy. Without going into details, but that same weekend the Ex ended up involved in a murder and got himself a nice vacation at the Gray Bar Hotel courtesy of the Tennessee taxpayers.

Mr. Perv was a bit more elusive. He did appear one Saturday morning while the girls were sunbathing on the back area of thee domicile. He got closer this time while doing puppet tricks with his anatomy. Once again the little silver Saturday Night Special” made an appearance and Mr. Perv (according to the girls) screamed and ran away never to be seen again.  I was told of the latest encounter the same day it happened and shown the little Raven to whic I had to congratulate them and gave them a we bit of hell for not telling me before. I was still young and stupid to understand the great equalizer a gun was and the fact that my role as knight in shinning armor was not needed as long as the women had the proper tools to defend themselves.

Not too long ago we saw the video of a Detroit Mom facing three Home Invaders with a 9 mm carbine. She did not use a M4 variant set for 9mm or any of the “Real Long Guns” out there but a lowly H-Point Carbine:

Detroit Mom Hi Point Carbine
Possibly the ugliest long gun out there.

Now, the family could have followed the snob response and wait till they had enough money to buy a “Real Carbine” in 5.56 by Daniel Defense ($1,500 and up) but instead they bought an under $300 gun, had money left for a cheap surveillance security system and ammunition which she happily shared at high velocity with the Home Invaders.

 

And before you come back and give me the Guns and Ammo Top 100 Reasons Why a Saturday Night Special Sucks, I have a challenge for you: If you really believe SNS are such a pile of crap unworthy to save lives, I will load a 9mm Hi Point with Simmunitions and I will ask you to serve as target ten yards away. Any rejection will be considered a win on my part.

Any takers?

 

 

54 Replies to ““Real Guns” or the snobbish attitude about certain brands of firearms.”

  1. I’ve got a Hi-Point just like the one in the picture. It’s a blast too shoot and with the exception of some reloads, has always fired. And, to me, it’s so ugly its beautiful. 🙂

    Would I want to go to “war” with the Hi-Point. Of course not. But for plinking it’s just the ticket.

    A “real” gun is anything that can put lead down range reliably.




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  2. Once upon a time Taurus made half decent firearms. One of the earliest guns I learned to shoot was a Taurus 22 revolver. But for whatever reason, Taurus’ quality control fell off.

    I bought a Taurus 327 which couldn’t group less than a foot in diameter at 7 yards. Took it to a gunsmith and turns out that none of the chambers aligned to the forcing cone correctly so the bullets never engaged the bore properly and it grouped like a shotgun. Sent it back to Taurus. What came back grouped bout 4 inches at 7 yards, almost 18 inches to the right of the point of aim.

    Another trip to the gunsmith and then back to Cabela’s where after much unpleasantness they exchanged my lemon for a Ruger LCR. That BTW will group 5 shots into about a golf ball size group at 7 yards exactly where I point it, every time.

    I’m not alone on this, my buddy got a Taurus 1911. In it’s whole life, it couldn’t cycle 3 mags in a row without jamming, and all of that was 230 grain FMJ.

    I had a Hi-Point, worked great, sold it during the “great gun rush of 2013” for more than double what I paid for it. Have a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 which I love. I don’t mind cheap and ugly guns, as long as they are reliable and hit what I aim at. In the last three Taurus pistols I have had experience with, they all failed to do that.




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    1. This.

      I’m a self-admitted gun snob, but even I can see that inexpensive and ugly firearms serve a valuable purpose as long as they actually work.

      I don’t think I’ve ever heard a bad word about reliability or customer service from hi-point from anyone I know who owns a hi-point firearm.

      As far as inexpensive guns go, I see plenty of people that overlook reliable mid-tier second-hand guns (Ruger, Springfield, S&W, Glock, etc.) in favor of spending almost as much on some other model of gun simply to have a “new” gun.




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      1. I learned to shoot on a 9mm Hi-Point. The ergonomics are crap, and it’s so top-heavy and narrow-gripped that I now (having learned better) refer to it as a “brick on a stick”. But the owner described it as the best pistol on the market for the money.

        In that description, he’s 100% correct. It’s the AK-47 of the American pistol world: it goes bang reliably, it’s fairly accurate, and it’s dirt cheap – under $200 new-in-box (under $150 used). If someone’s short on cash and needs a gun now (i.e. no time to save up for a “real gun”), it’s “real” enough to do the job.




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  3. Hi, my name is Mack. And I’m a gun snob.

    That being said, I don’t disparage what others buy and carry, so long as it is functional and safe.

    A Fraternity Brother of mine did his residency at Grady in Atlanta. And was living in a not nice part of town. We found a NIB Hi-Point at a gun show for $120 out the door.

    That was the most reliable gun he could afford and it still serves admirably as his night stand gun.

    However, that doesn’t stop from the occasional boat anchor jokes when we go to the lake.




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  4. Always makes me wonder if the gun snobs would be willing to go about life for a few months to a year with NOTHING in order to follow their own advice and save up for that “buy once cry once” heater.




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  5. I’m guilty of snobbery, but if all you can afford is a Raven in .25, do yourself a favor and buy an inexpensive .22LR. Makes a considerably worse wound, and is lots more accurate and fun to shoot.




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  6. Please, please don’t lump in Hi-Point with the Lorcin/Bryco/Raven gun-shaped lump of metal industrial complex.

    Hi-Points are ugly as sin, but I’ve never heard anyone who has used one say anything besides “accurate enough, and goes bang every single time”. HP’s are a worthy weapon for the shooter on a budget.

    The less said about the Lorcin/Bryco/Raven gun-shaped lump of metal, the better. Weirdly enough, an ex of mine had a Phoenix HP22, the one with forty different safeties, that seemed quite reliable and accurate enough for the shooting she did.

    Taurus? It’s a crapshoot. I had a Millenium I couldn’t trust to work as a paperweight. I have a Taurus Tracker that is my favorite pistol for fun shooting… a little large for concealed carry, but I’d wear it as my zombie days sidearm cheerfully.




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    1. The Hi-Point is one of the best “goes bump in the night” gun I can think of. Had one in .45 ACP, very accurate out to 25 yds (furthest distance the indoor range had). Mounded a cheap LED flashlight to it with a cheap Made In China eBay special flashlight mount. I think the Speer Gold Dot I loaded it with was worth more than the gun itself.

      Being a long gun, it was easier to shoot accurately than a handgun. No recoil, even with +P ammo, which meant that my wife could shoot it in a pinch (she is recoil sensitive, she knows how to use a gun, but is not a shooter). I got it aligned such that the POI was right in the center of the flashlight beam. Put the light on the target and pull the trigger. Worked like a charm.

      Sold it off for crazy profit and got a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 instead. My only complaint about the Hi-Point is that it uses its own mags. I like the Kel-Tec since it uses the same S&W mags as my 5904 which is my glove box gun.




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    2. I have one of those Phoenix 22s, the “target” model with the longer barrel. After being frustrated enough times(and thought it was slightly dangerous to not be able to drop the hammer slowly without a mag in), I disabled one safety. It went bang often, but not every time. Until however, one bang went boom, and the mag release stripped its threads, and went flying, the mag dropped, and a very surprised guest of mine immediately put it down.




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  7. I like to say that the Hi-Point carbine is today’s version of the Mosin-Nagant: ugly, yes, but it works reliably, and it’s cheap enough for anyone to buy, feed and maintain.




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  8. My first carry gun was a Raven 25. I bought it from a GSgt after I was set upon and severely beaten by 3 thugs with a tire iron. I carried that for about a year and the bought a RG 38 special.

    My current carry gun is a High Standard 1911, made in the Philippines. The same people that make 1911’s for rock island armory and a few others. It’s not a $1000 colt, but it goes bang every time and so far it has never failed to eat anything I feed it.

    I did carry a Jennings J22 for a while. That was after 1st wife made sure all of my gun collection ended up in a pawn shop. The only thing it would shoot reliably was CCI Stingers.




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  9. Here’s the deep, dark secret of the gun world:
    Cheap guns kill too. They kill just as well as expensive ones do. On the receiving end, there’s no difference at all between six rounds of .357 fired out of my $200 Ruger Security Six and the same amount of the same ammo fired out of something from the S&W Performance Center that costs more than my first car (or my second). The big reason people use the “Real guns” formulation is flat-out brand and social snobbery. Wilson Custom has been making their daily bread off of just exactly this for decades now.
    At the close, the important issue isn’t how much you spent on your gun but how well you can use it, and a gun you can afford is automatically 100% better than one you can’t.




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    1. God, I remember back in the day when you could get old Ruger Security and Service Six revolvers for less than $200. Even a few years ago you could get police surplus S&W aluminum frame pistols for dirt cheap. I have 3 S&W 6904 which I bought for $150 a piece with 3 mags, all BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) surplus.Ex-cop guns were always my favorite gun-show gold. Ugly on the outside, almost always like new on the inside, and priced in the $250-300 range. Those were a steal whenever you could get them.




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      1. Mine was from when the Chapel Hill PD upgraded their sidearms to Beretta 92’s (because god knows they needed the firepower, right?). It was a 2″ that had had the hammer bobbed and the lockwork smoothed out… but, because the bluing was more absent than not, the store was only asking $200. I fell on that puppy like a hawk on a slow rabbit.




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      2. In the last gun show before prices soared in the recent panic, there was a guy with multiple tables piled high with Rem. 870 police magnums from the Texas Department of Criminal Justice: they were going for 230 out the door.

        Police trade ins are an often overlooked way to get good, reliable guns at extremely reasonable prices.




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        1. I bought two Pennington County Sheriff’s old Mossberg 500’s with the ghost ring sights and side saddle shell holders for $185 per at a gun show in South Dakota. Great truck guns.




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  10. To play a bit of devil’s advocate here:

    What portion of the gun snob’s disdain stems from a fear that the cheap gun will:
    1) Not fire when needed?
    2) Not fire accurately when needed?
    3) Catastrophically fail?

    The point to make, repeatedly, (and I realize I’m preaching to the choir) is that any gun intended for a defensive application needs to be tested. At the very least, a couple of boxes of ammo should go through it in controlled circumstances before defensive applications. Accuracy and reliability need to be confirmed. If the fears of the gun snobs are justified, testing will show which particular guns are lemons. If one Jennings out of ten has problems (just throwing numbers out) and one Smith out of a thousand has similar problems, the gun snob has a point, as long as he assumes sufficient testing will not occur.

    Why wouldn’t anyone test a gun purchased for defensive purposes? Well, here one of the dangerous effects of gun control (especially urban gun control) rears its ugly head: How far will one have to drive to get to a range? How much will have to be spent in addition to the gun? Can the gun be legally transported? What are the requirements for transport?

    It is possible that the attitude of the gun snob comes from the valid worry that the person buying a gun for protection will simply buy it, load it, and put it in their nightstand, so to speak, only to find that it doesn’t help them when they need it. (Worse yet, it could do additional harm.) However, I would argue that this tendency is what needs to be stamped out (via awareness and training), rather than the availability of inexpensive guns.




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    1. 1) Not fire when needed?
      2) Not fire accurately when needed?
      3) Catastrophically fail?

      I am gonna let you in a “secret”: Those three things you mention, I have seen happen in IDPA matches…to top of the line 1911s In fact, the more expensive the 1911, it seemed the more prone to jams and screw ups.

      But still that is not the point. Yes, I am sure everybody would love a more expensive gun for self defense, but if you cannot afford it and need one, the I’ll take whatever is on my budget. Life First, Better Job later.




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      1. Comparing $$$$ competition-oriented 1911 pistols to mid-$$$ carry-oriented pistols isn’t really fair.

        Tighter 1911 pistols tend to be more accurate, but also more prone to malfunctions. When you reduce the clearances between parts, the resulting pistol is more consistent from shot to shot but it also has less tolerance for fouling and ammunition issues.

        Furthermore, the shooters who invest in high-dollar custom 1911/2011 pistols tend to shoot a lot, both in competition and for practice. They also tend to reload, experiment with their competition gun(s)/gear, and many tend to not like cleaning their guns. So these guns often live in range bags, are taken to ranges multiple days every week for practice, to multiple matches every weekend (in SE PA it’s rare for a Saturday or Sunday to not have at least one match within about a 1-hour radius of where I live), shooting loads designed with cost and accuracy in mind (read: dirty), and have relatively high round counts between cleanings.

        To use a car analogy, some of us are saying that a Honda or Toyota is a better daily driver than a Yugo, and your response here is to use the red herring that we’re recommending that people use Formula 1 cars for daily drivers.

        Glock and S&W polymer-framed pistols tend to be highly reliable and relatively accurate out of the box. Furthermore, due to their popularity and marketshare, it’s usually possible to find accessories (mags, holsters, sights, etc.) and replacement parts locally. Especially with holsters, this can be huge — how many dozen holsters do you own that you bought without ever handling? How many of those didn’t end up working out, and now live in some dark corner?

        I agree that having a gun is far better than not having a gun, but even so there are plenty of ways to get a GOOD gun without spending a lot of money.

        Hi-points are probably the only new gun in their price range that is really reliable. From there, I’d recommend skipping over most inexpensive brands (Taurus, Kel Tec, etc.) due to their reputation for problem guns — these guns tend to experience issues at a higher rate than those of higher tiers, and any such issue is likely to greatly increase the total cost of ownership, while also depriving the owner of their defensive tool while it’s being worked on by the manufacturer and/or third parties. Thus I’d recommend skipping straight from the hi-point to the Ruger SR-series and Smith SD-series pistols (new), or any police-trade-in Glock, Smith, Sig, Beretta, or other duty-quality firearm.

        As a bit of an aside, one thing that has always bothered me is the number of people who prefer to buy a crap-tier gun (e.g. Taurus) over a used good-tier gun (e.g. Glock/M&P), even when the two are practically the same price, just so that they can have something “new.” My first 3-5 guns were all used, and as it stands roughly half of my guns, including the Glock 19 that I frequently carry, were bought used.

        Just as not having a gun is a sub-optimal, buying new is sub-optimal when it comes at the expense of quality.




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  11. I’m not a snob about cheap guns, but I don’t like semi-auto pistols with a safety that flops back and forth under recoil, like the Jennings, and I agree with Jeff Cooper who admonished us to never carry a .25ACP loaded, because we might have to use it against a bad guy, and if we did, and he founded out about it, it would be really pissed. OTOH, I have a Hi-Point in .45ACP, and there is nothing poor about that gun besides the price. I call it my “Thumper,” and it is my primary home defense weapon.




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  12. From a poor mans perspective.

    1: Does it work? If yes see #2. If no keep looking.
    2: Do you really want it? If yes see #3. If no keep looking.
    3: Can you afford it? If yes, sleep on it for a week or 2. Then ask yourself these questions again and decide.

    There’s a lot of things I want and just about as many I can’t afford. This is what works for me when I’m looking to buy any extras in my life.




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    1. ^^ This ^^

      As a man on a tight budget, it pisses me off to no end to read a gun/accessory review and see “great product at an affordable price” (or some other similar statement), only to find out that its cost is, in reality, 5-10 times what I can afford.

      Apparently my definition and their definition of “affordable” are very different (plus the “professional” reviewers tend to get T&E stuff for, y’know, free, so it’s easy for them to say “affordable” 🙁 ). So I get by on a $40 Kydex holster and a 30-lumen non-tactical blue-white-LED flashlight ($15 at Walmart), since I simply don’t have the funds to get the “affordable” $160 leather shoulder rig or the “economy-priced” $250 200-lumen pocket torch I’d like.

      “The perfect is the enemy of the good,” or in this case, the “good enough”.




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      1. As someone who has used a shoulder holster in the past, it has been my experience that they are both less comfortable and harder to conceal than traditional forms of on-belt carry (IWB/OWB, strongside/weakside, appendix, etc.). I found the extra weight to be uncomfortable both for my shoulders, and my back, and the gun flopped around too much to conceal. That’s on top of the issue of muzzing everyone else in the room.

        I’ve found that using a quality gunbelt is critical for my comfort: A good gunbelt won’t sag under the weight of a pistol, and it will distribute the weight of the gun across the hips. In my experience, they’re also not all that expensive (especially when compared to the junk belts that department stores sell): I don’t have a single leather gunbelt that cost me more than 50 bucks.

        One of the best sources I’ve found for inexpensive belts and holsters is Crossbreed: Their first-quality/new products come with a 100% satisfaction guarantee in addition to their warranty, and when functional products get returned under this policy, they are usually resold as seconds (full warranty, but no satisfaction guarantee — in other words, all sales are final, but if it breaks they’ll fix or replace it,).

        As far as lights go, my primary EDC light is a Streamlight ProTac 2L; The current version is rated to output up to 260 lumens on high, and Amazon sells it for just over 40 bucks. While the batteries aren’t exactly cheap, I find that they are far better suited to the task than AA batteries: Alkaline batteries, especially cheap ones, suck for flashlights: They drain quickly, don’t hold their charges well over long periods of time, tend to have voltage and current output drop under load, and tend to be prone to leaks. Quality lithium CR123A-type batteries tend to hold their charges well over time, maintain voltage/current under load, and I’ve yet to have one leak. All this while being about the same price as lithium AA batteries. Across all the CR123A flashlights I own, I doubt I go through much more than a 12-pack (~25 bucks each) of batteries every year.




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  13. I carry a Taurus 32 H & R magnum snubbie in my front pocket, a Taurus 38 sp (7 round) in my coat pocket and a Glock 31 (357 Sig) in my man purse.

    I collect guns and have very nice custom and semi-custom 1911s, Pythons, N frames, etc. that I shoot and, like I said, collect.

    But I am perfectly comfortable with the less than exquisite guns tha I trust my life and my family’s life with.




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  14. It goes also, that even we gun snobs would be well served to carry a lesser marque than our vaunted Wilsons and Ed Browns, for this simple reason.

    You use it, and it’s going to languish and likely rust away in some P.D. evidence room for the next three to thirty years. You can afford to see $3,000+ depart from your gun budget like that? Fine, I can’t.

    My Auto-Ordnance 1911 Commander (General), is utterly dependable, accurate and not a total heartbreak if I should have to surrender it to some investigator who’ll scribe his “mark” into the metal upon seizure as evidence.

    Same reason I’d carry my S&W Model 64, and leave my beloved Model 28 in the safe. No heartbreak if the 64 goes to evidence. Much heartbreak to see the 28 leave my grubby mitts.

    Glocks and S&W MPs make great carry guns, for this very reason. Very dependable, and very replaceable.

    Jim
    Sunk New Dawn
    Galveston, TX




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    1. Having the gun seized is the least of your problems, you will probably miss a couple days of work, you might be harassed by the dead guys family for years, and your representation in court could cost you 50-200k. You could end up in the paper, lots of people will treat you differently. You might lose your job.

      The gun is almost of no consequence at all. Its like being upset about the cost of new tires on your lambo. If that upsets you, you are not doing all the math.

      If I could be guaranteed I would not suffer the above, they could have my 3k gun, and I would buy the chief two other guns as a thank you.




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  15. Jeff Cooper also said about the .25 that at least it allowed someone to say “I have a gun” and mean it. He also said, after talking about accuracy standards, that if a gun will only shoot into 6 inches at ten feet it can still save someone’s life. His student Mark Moritz once wrote a column titled, IIRC, ” In praise of cheap guns”. By the way, Moritz is the guy who originated the statement that the first rule of gunfighting is to have a gun.(Another funny and cogent essay) Know your history, young padawans. (Sorry, Miguel, but to me you are a youngster)




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    1. A good friend of mine is a public defender, and has seen more cases with a person killed with a cheap .25 than anything else.

      So if it goes bang, and it is all you have, then its a defensive weapon.

      My cheap gun? A M57 Yugo Tokarav in 7.62×25. It goes BANGGG every time I shoot it, and is pretty accurate. Cost me $175 to my door, not including the C&R.




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  16. Taurus?? Did you say Taurus?? I have a Taurus 111Pro 9mm I got about 2 years ago now. 12+1 shoots straight and if it jams it’s because I haven’t cleaned it since when!!(didn’t clean it for a while to see how long it would go till it got dirty enough to “Jam!) Bad QC eh?? Anybody can say “Bad QC” but my Taurus is like the “Energizer bunny” it just keeps on shooting, and shooting and shooting……………Straiight!!!
    Got Taurus??!!!,
    III%,
    skybill-out




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  17. You are pretty accurate with that Model 28 if I remember you correctly for the shooting get-together that KDT sponsored 5 or 6 years ago.




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  18. Now, don’t forget that many of us gun snobs were once young, cheap and foolish ourselves. We’ve bought many sub-marquee brands and various imported clones of proper guns, and found them wanting in many, many ways. We’ve seen reliability problems, lack of sights, lack of accessories, lack of parts, and design features that make them sub-optimal for regular practice, training, and competition.
    And the funny thing is, for every $150-$200 I spent on various off brand guns, I had $100-$150 less to spend on getting an actual good gun- as the gun shop only gave me about $50 or less for the cheap stuff. Later on, I’ve learned how to shop for guns, and have picked up used 3rd gen S&W’s and a Beretta 92D for $300 (plus other deals).
    With that, a High Point will do just fine if one is at the ramen noodles stage of life… but if you actually want a gun to carry, practice, compete, and train with, you will want something better.




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    1. You’re correct, but you’re also forgetting the subset of the population that benefits from cheap, available guns: people on a tight budget who need a gun right now, and don’t have time to shop around for weeks or save up for months.

      I’ll agree that reliability is a key factor, but only if you have multiple options. For the shopper with $150, they don’t have many options.

      Also, consider the odds. (Using VERY rounded numbers,) 99% of people won’t be assaulted in their lives. Of the 1% that are, 99% of assaults end when a gun is displayed, no shots fired. And even most “unreliable” guns will go bang 9 out of 10 times. Reliability, though important, is for that 10% of 1% of 1%.

      But again, if all you have is $150, you simply cannot afford to drop triple that to cover that 0.001%.




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      1. In that case, one of the many cheap, used, tube fed semi-auto .22 rifles filling the racks at multiple gunshops may be the better item for home defense.
        -one, there’s usually no waiting period for a rifle.
        -two, rifles are easier to shoot accurately
        -three, you’ll get more “oomph” than any cheap pistol in the .22lr-.25acp range
        .

        Mosin-nagants used to be a steal back when they were around $98 each, but they’ve gone up. $250 plus is just crazy to me.




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        1. No argument there. There are some fine, fine semi-auto .22 LR or .22 Hornet or .22 Mag rifles for next-to-dirt-cheap at any place that sells second-hand guns.

          My only nit-pick with going that route: Where you gonna find any ammo for it? 😉




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  19. I bought a Hi-Point 9mm pistol a few years ago when I saw it new for $125. It was kind of a joke and I thought I would shoot it until it broke and dump it. I put about 1000 rounds through it including some super hot Israeli sub gun ammo. That stuff wasn’t supposed to be used any pistol. It shot it all and kept on coming, no jams or misfires.
    I don’t even keep the Hi-Point loaded as a house gun today as I have many guns of higher quality for that purpose and for carry, but if I was making minimum wage and lived in a bad part of town, I’d trust it.




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  20. I open carry my Hi-Point C9 regularly. No, it’s not fancy, or shiny, but it works. Every time I pull the trigger, after thumbing the safety off, it works. Yes, it rattles when I walk. Yes, it’s not the lightest handgun on the market. It works. Every time. And I don’t have to worry about making it squeaky clean inside and out after I fire it. It’s an inexpensive, dependable handgun.




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  21. One is none, and two is one was based on the ‘low end’ pistols. My son-in-law had a Hi-Point 9 that would not shoot two rounds in a row. It always stovepiped or jammed regardless of the ammo. I paid for him to take it to a gunsmith who gave up on it. I loaned them the money to buy a Glock 19. One of the reasons my true go-to is a revolver. Preferably in .357…




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  22. As a rule, any gun you want to use to defend your life should be tested before you rely on it- even revolvers. 50 rounds is probably the minimum, with a few of your preferred defensive load thrown in. This is especially true of cheap guns- QC is expensive, and was pretty much passed onto the consumer. This is why so many of the cheap guns have good warranties.




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  23. I encourage people to carry the best they can afford. As a CCW instructor, I’ve seen very few Byrco/Jennings pistols complete the course of fire (50 rounds) without some type of malfunction. OTOH, I’ve only had 1 or 2 Hi Points act up. I wouldn’t take a Hi Point to Gunsite or a beauty contest. But they seem fine for the casual shooter.




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  24. Carry what you can point and use, and afford to lose in case something more than ~pointing~ happens – or even then.
    It’s all swell to go to the range with your slick custom Les Baer and pop holes in paper, but when it gets USED and then TAKEN in evidence…you’re out a chunk of change, and when will it ever be returned?




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  25. They are hated because they are zinc frames, tons of cast parts, not because they are cheap. I have some nice guns, 900 dollar and up …. but I still want a number of cheap european suplus guns like feg pa63, bulgarian mak, random p64, cz83, zastava m70a tokarev is new 9mm, very inexpensive, all steel. It is ugly, but well made. I would make fun of someone who bought a bryco if I knew they had more money for being a cheap ass. I would not make fun of a friend who bought a zastava because it is a well made gun that happens to be inexpensive.

    Along the lines of the DD m4 comment, same with a surplus $79 mosin nagant, sweet gun, cheap ammo, not a competitive bench gun, but at 100 yards it would get you deer, or kill a wolf and protect your home. Its not a jam o matic, its all steel. Its nice and a good value even at $150.

    The price is not what is getting people made fun of, if glocks of cz75, or mp, or xd was $225 some people would STILL buy the cheapest gun, they are just assholes, then they will brag on the cheap gun, and drive knowledgeable people crazy. Also if xd, mp, cz75, or glocks were hella cheap do you think anyone would make fun of people for buying them, or do you think they would instead go out and buy ten of them? I know I would go buy ten of them.




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  26. One more thought, the measure of a cheap gun is not if I would let you shoot it at me, it should be, Ill take my mp, xd, cz75, sig 228 your choice, we both fire at a backstop till one of us jams, gun breaks, etc. If I win I get to shoot you (in the foot), if you win you get to shoot me (in the foot).

    So when can we have a match ? Ill pick your gun, you can use a phoenix arms 22, which I know of personally breaking springs every 200 shots or so for a friend that took it as partial payment of a debt/loan. He has spent more money on spring ordering them from Phoenix arms that he purchased the gun for.

    That would be the measure. I would not let you throw a rock at my face either, it does not mean a rock is a better choice than a sig 228. Or even a $199 zastava.




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  27. Actually, since Simunitions are loaded so light that they probably won’t cycle the heavy slide and recoil springs of a Hi-Point, and the company only makes conversion kits for “real guns” like Glock, 1911, SIG, Beretta, Walther, H&K, S&W and CZ service pistols, that seems like a fairly safe bet to me… 😉




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