I want to be clear, I am not victim-blaming.
No to go off on too much of a tangent, but that is a phrase that I have come to hate. To me, victim-blaming is when you say or imply “the victim deserved X because he/she did Y.” Unfortunately, it has come to mean “finding any fault with the victim’s actions that lead to their demise.”
I approach these situations from the point of view of a forensics expert, i.e., that it’s necessary to understand the totality of what happened, and that includes the actions of the victim. Such an analysis can be done without saying the victim deserved their fate.
For example, no woman deserves to be stabbed to death by a vagrant. Still, it should be noted that a woman, walking alone in a secluded area under an overpass where mentally unstable vagrants are known to live, is taking an unnecessarily high risk. If the point of forensic engineering is to understand why something bad happened so it can be prevented in the future, we need to understand what happened so that we can tell other women to avoid going into secluded areas under overpasses where mentally unstable vagrants are known to live.
This to me isn’t victim blaming, it’s understanding the situation fully.
No to the prime topic of this post.
A Good Samaritan with a gun, an armed civilian, stopped a mass shooter in Colorado. However, he was killed by the responding police.
A Denver man, who was one of three people killed during a shooting in Arvada this week, is being remembered as a hero for his actions.
The tragic shooting took place on Monday in Olde Town Arvada, claiming the lives of Arvada Police Officer Gordon Beesley, Colorado resident Johnny Hurley, and the suspect.
“If not for the heroic actions of Mr. Hurley and Arvada Police Officers on that day, more innocent lives would have been lost,” Detective David Snelling with the Arvada Police Department wrote in a release on Wednesday.
This news article explains how this tragedy unfolded.
“Samaritan” who killed Arvada gunman was shot by officer while holding suspect’s AR-15, police say
An Arvada police officer fatally shot “good Samaritan” Johnny Hurley in Olde Town after Hurley killed a gunman intent on murdering police officers and picked up the gunman’s AR-15, investigators said Friday.
Minutes earlier, the gunman ambushed Arvada police Officer Gordon Beesley, fatally shooting him. Hurley shot the gunman, identified by police as Ronald Troyke, and was holding Troyke’s AR-15 rifle when an Arvada officer arrived, according to a timeline of events released by police.
Investigators found a note written by Troyke with multiple statements about wanting to kill police, including, “Today I will kill as many Arvada officers as I possibly can.”
The incident began with a 12:49 p.m. call to police from Troyke’s brother who asked for a welfare check because Troyke was going to “do something crazy,” according to the timeline.
Soon after, at 1:17 p.m., police dispatch received a call about a “suspicious person” in Olde Town Square, police said. A teen reported being approached by an older man who made a weird noise and showed them a condom, police said.
Beesley responded to the square at 1:31 p.m., parking on Webster Street before walking through an alley toward the plaza.
Troyke pulled up in his truck, parked and ran after the officer with a semi-automatic shotgun, police said. Troyke then yelled at Beesley, and shot the officer when he stopped and turned around, according to the timeline.
After he killed Beesley, police said, Troyke shot out the windows of a patrol car and fired shots in the air. He then returned to his truck to retrieve an AR-15 rifle.
As the gunman ran back toward Olde Town Square, Hurley shot him with a handgun, according to police. Hurley, 40, of Denver, had been shopping inside the nearby Army Navy Surplus Store when he saw the gunman walk by, a witness previously told The Denver Post.
“A responding Arvada Police Officer then encountered Mr. Hurley, who was holding the suspect’s AR-15,” police wrote. “The officer shot him.”
Now look at this from the point of view of the police.
They have a warning that there is a crazy guy out there who wants to kill as many cops as possible.
One officer has already been killed in an ambush.
They have a potential mass shooting event on their hands.
They roll up on the scene and see a guy holding an AR-15.
They stop the potential mass shooter with the exact and appropriate tactics that police (except the BrCoward County Sheriff’s Department) have been trained to use since Columbine. Shoot the fucker before he can kill anyone else.
Except that this time the guy with the AR was a Good Samaritan who just took out the real threat.
This is absolutely tragic but totally understandable.
The key element that made this go from “hero CCW stops cop killer” to “Good Samaritan killed by cops” is the moment Hurley picked up the AR.
Hurley did not deserve to die for what he did. I understand the impulse to control the bad guy’s weapon so he can’t use it again. But the cops rolling into a potential ambush didn’t know that and did what they were trained to do.
Take Hurley out of this for a second.
Had the cops rolled up, saw Trokey with his rifle, stopped, and immediately took him out, we would all be saying “good shoot.”
We need to look at it from this point of view so that we don’t make this same mistake in the future.
CCW permit holders are good at taking out mass shooters.
The lesson to learn is what do to once that has been done.
DO NOT TOUCH THE MASS SHOOTER’S WEAPON
If you’ve done your job he’s incapacitated. If he moves towards his weapon, shoot him again. But do not try to secure his weapon. You are not a cop, that is not your job.
When the police start to roll up on the scene, DO NOT APPEAR TO BE A THREAT.
Reholster or put down your weapon. Put your hands up. Appear as not threatening as possible.
Of course, if you have time call the police yourself and tell them you are the good guy, but you may not have time for that.
The police are going into a dangerous situation. You want all their snap judgments to be in your favor as an innocent to be protected.
You survived the bad guy, now you have to survive the police encounter.
This was tragic but totally avoidable.
I am not victim-blaming. I am doing a forensic analysis of this event to impart lessons to other CCW Good Samaritans so they can make it home alive instead of being praised as heroes posthumously with a Go Fund Me for the family (verified by the Arvada Police, see the first news article).
Good point. Hard cover (if available) is your friend.
Good fortune is your friend. If available.
Amen
Truly sad. He did exactly the wrong thing by picking up that AR.
Kick it away. Step on it. Sit on it if you must (although that makes it difficult to check if there is a second goblin around).
You don’t need to pick it up to secure it.
If at all possible, do your best to avoid appearing like the goblin.
Agree totally. However, Hurley was not necessarily doing anything that a large percentage of the population would not have done themselves.
Most everyone will stop thinking about consequences during a period of high stress. Actions will be taken without regard to how they appear to others. Hurley was likely in that situation, and I can imagine he was thinking the best way to ensure the shooter cannot continue to kill is to control the weapon.
It is easy to Monday morning QB and talk about “I would have this, or that.” but until you are in that situation, you just do not know. Practice it. Doing dry fire drills, put something that represents a weapon on the ground, or nearby, and after a drill, move to stand on it, or kick it away, or otherwise secure the scene without picking up the “weapon.”
And, do not be afraid to pretend the flashing lights are pulling up, and drop your gun, or holster it, or hands up, whatever you think it will take to tell the cops you are not a threat.
Every concealed carry class I have taken teaches you to swivel the head and check for threats. The good instructors will chew you out if you do not do so after a round of fire. Do the same thing here. Practice it until it become second nature.
1. Do not pick up the shooters weapon
2. Drop your weapon when the cops show up
Also:
1.5. Call 911 and ask for an ambulance
I wondered about that shooting. Stupid stupid stupid thing to do. The comments above are spot on. Take this lesson as a teachable moment. No one knows how they will act in any situation. But we should try ti instill what NOT to do. Tread carefully my friends…
All good points. Hurley may have been in shock from the rsults of having to pull his weapon and shoot another person, and possibly because he was amazed he wasn’t shot dead by Trokei.
Don’t touch the weapon. Don’t get your fingerprints or DNA on it if you can. Kick or toss it away if the guy is still moving. There is no reason to hold it unless you are being shot at by his accomplices, and your weapon is shot dry. Lower your weapon, and drop it when the Police are almost there. Put your hands up, EMPTY, fingers spread, and start yelling “Police! Police! Over Here! The bad guy(s) is down over here! Police!”
If they tell you to get on the ground, DO IT!!! Don’t argue! Obey them. If they cuff you, well it is a lot better than shot dead. They are probably as upset and scared as you are. Do what you can do to calm and de-escalate the situation, which includes shutting up and obeying their orders.
I saw this sort of commentary a LOT as an RN. “Well, (name) should have done THIS! I certainly would not have done THAT!”
While the commentator was NOT there, at that time, with that information.
As an after action analysis, yep, let’s learn how a (seemingly) reasonable and innocuous action might elicit you, the sheepdog, getting shot.
And learn from his experience.
But, I certainly was not there, in those circumstances, with that information, and that internal environment (adrenaline dump, indeed!), and so, simply for myself, I am unable to predict what I would do, if anything, different.
Except, now that I know HIS experience, I hope I can learn from it, and find my own way of f’ing things up.
Reltney, you said it first so I won’t. The only thing I could add is that, listening to the witnesses who talked to the local news makes me think that he would do the same thing today if he were alive except hopefully not pick up the AR.
i cannot express how sad i am with a hero like this succumbing to friendly fire. As John Correia, says, be right with your God now.
I’m not disagreeing with your advice in principle. Frankly, we don’t know why Mr. Hurley picked up the AR, perhaps in his mind, he had a perfectly legitimate reason to feel he needed to secure it. I wasn’t there, I don’t know.
LIkewise, I’m not willing to just reflexively give the cop a pat on the head and move on either. I’m not saying it was a bad shoot and I’m not a proponent of armchair quarterbacking split second decisions; but I’m also not willing to just assume it was a good shoot. I wasn’t there, I don’t know.
Was Mr. Hurley holding the AR in a manner that indicated he was getting ready to shoot someone or was he holding it down, in a non-threatening manner?
Was he facing toward or away from the cop? Did the cop have time to give a verbal command to give the perceived bad guy a chance to drop the weapon? Or did he just see a gun and start shooting?
Maybe the cop did give a verbal command and Mr. Hurley, in the confusion and adrenaline of the moment, didn’t understand it, didn’t follow it and did something the cop perceived as threatening. If that’s the case, the cop was justified.
But if he saw a guy with a rifle and just started shooting…not quite so clear cut.
What if Mr. Hurley had been using his own AR in the action? Plenty of people carry “truck guns” for self defense, especially out west, and if the bad guy was using a rifle, it isn’t unreasonable for a good Samaritan to want parity of force if possible. So the cop just shooting the first person he saw with a rifle (if that’s what happened) may not have been the best tactical decision he could make.
My point is: I’m not necessarily condemning either of the parties actions because I don’t believe any of us know enough of the details to do so, but I’m also not willing to just reflexively say that the cop was justified in shooting when he did because, again, I don’t believe any of us know enough of the details to do so.
That doesn’t negate your advice, I agree with it. Don’t touch the bad guy’s gun except maybe to kick it away from him. Also, I’d say it’s a good idea to holster your weapon as soon as the threat is neutralized because the cops may not wait to figure out exactly who is the good guy and who is the bad guy before opening fire.
Unfortunately, if the bad guy is still moving around and you feel like you should keep him covered until the cops show up, and the cop that shows up has the instinct to just shoot anyone with a gun, you may end up like Mr. Hurley anyway.
Perhaps the best policy is just keep your head down, be prepared to defend yourself, and let everyone else worry about their own self defense. Less chance of being shot by the bad guys OR the cops that way…not to mention less risk of firing up the BLM lynch mob or falling prey to an overzealous anti-gun prosecutor and spending the rest of your life in prison and/or hiding.
But that’s just my 102 cents
(inflation)
In hazardous activities (flying, skydiving, etc.) it’s common practice to analyze “incidents” to try to understand what happened and how to avoid the bad outcome in similar situations in the future. That avoidance often involves training changes; it might also involve other actions such as equipment changes.
I view the discussion of this incident in the same way. You’re right, Mr. Hurley may have had a specific reason for picking up the weapon. He quite possible was not in a threatening posture, seen objectively after the fact.
Nevertheless, the fact is that things went wrong here. Some of the reasons may be objectively rational; others may be related to psychology and stress response. In any event, it is indisputable that bad things happened, and it is wise to ask what can be done to avoid such bad outcomes.
The best actions are those under control of the potential victim. That way you’re not dependent on the quality of the training of others. So yes, it’s fair to ask “should police training be improved?” but the more reliable ones are “what can I as an individual do differently to avoid Hurley’s fate?”
In answering those questions “but the world shouldn’t be that way!” is not a particularly helpful objection.
Weird. I posted a comment, then made a small edit, saw both the before and after displayed, but now it’s gone.
And it’s back again… just above, timestamped 6/28/2021 10:46 am.
I’ve seen it happen a couple times, too, so I emailed Miguel about it.
Apparently Akismet is flagging you as a possible scammer/troll, which just means a moderator has to approve your comment so it will re-appear. Miguel has been pretty good about staying on top of it. 🙂