AWA reminded me that a couple of months ago on a Friday Feedback, reader It’s Just Boris asked this question:

Hm. How about an article looking at 5.7×28 out of handguns as a self defense round? Seems to be a blooming (mushrooming?) caliber these days.

I finally got around to answering it.

The short answer is that the 5.7 in its commercially available form is a novelty round that fails to adequately answer the question asked of it.  I say that as someone who has owned an FN Five-Seven for over a decade.

A brief history of the 5.7×28 is where we should start.

The 5.7×28 was developed in the early 90’s at the request of the miliary for a PDW.  A PDW or Personal Defense Weapon is a small arm that has power between a pistol and a rifle, for soldiers who don’t primarily use rifles but may need to in an emergency.  Perfect examples are artillery crews, tank crews, communications specialists, etc.

Traditionally, these soldiers were equipped with pistols.  At times, specialty pistols like the Artillery Luger and C96 Mauser that could be fitted with buttstocks (and sometimes in a full auto configuration) were issued to extend the range of these guns to provide more than short-range pistol defense.

After the development of the submachinegun, that weapon filled that role.  The M3 Grease Gun was issued to tank crews until the 1980s.

With the advent of body armor, the submachinegun became somewhat obsolete.  The idea of the PDW was a weapon that was the size and weight of a submachinegun but had the body armor penetrating capabilities of a rifle and a slightly extended range.

That required a new cartridge to be developed.  FN created the 5.7×28 and H&K created the 4.6×30.  Both took advantage of the weakness of soft armor and steel plates, that a high velocity, small diameter bullet would penetrate where a large diameter, slow bullet with more energy would not.

Both cartridges pushed very light, small-diameter bullets at velocities above 2,000 fps, which would defeat 90’s era military body armor.

The irony is that the PDW eventually became useless.  All the global powers that issue body armor, issue armor that can defeat the 5.7×28 with ceramic plates.  The military hates issuing multiple types of rounds (the Army hated supplying 30-06, 30 Carbine, and 45 ACP in WWII, and one reason to go to the 5.56 was a common platform of long gun simplified ammo logistics).  Weapon technology improved so that guns in rifle cartridges like the 5.56 could be shrunk down in size enough to make them effective as PDWs.  Why issue the M4 and P90 with different rounds and different magazines when you can issue a SIG Rattler that is the same size, and even out of a 5.5-inch barrel, the 5.56 has better performance than the 5.7×28?  The last holdout was the US Secret Service, who wanted a gun the size of the USI they used to issue, but could defeat body armor.  They ultimately came to the same decision as the military and switched to very short barrel AR pattern guns in 300 BLK, which has better knockdown and armor-defeating capabilities than the 5.7×28 (a 110 gr bullet 300 BLK from a 5.5 inch barrel is running 1700 fps, which is 700 ft-lbs of energy).

Back to the 5.7×28 and the two FN guns designed to shoot it, that would hit the commercial market.

The problem is that in the US it is illegal to sell armor-piercing handgun ammo.

So, to make the round commercially viable, FN partnered with Fiocchi to download the 5.7×28 to a lower velocity and use a heavier, polymer tip (Hornady V-max) bullet that made the round non-armor piercing.  It was neutered to make it legal.

There was, briefly, an American company that loaded several variants of the 5.7×28 to its original glory, and he got shut down by the ATF.

There are a few commercially available rounds.  A 40-grain FMJ at 1650 fps and 240 ft-lbs, a 40-grain polymer tip at 1750 fps and 270 ft-lbs, and a 40-grain Speer Gold Dot at 1800 fps and 290 ft-lbs.

Notice how all of them have less energy than a standard pressure 9×19 mm which is 115 grains at 1150 fps and 340 ft-lbs.

At low velocity, 224 caliber FMJ are not known to yaw, which is one major complaint about the 5.56 at extended distances.  The polymer tip bullets also, were designed to expand at much higher rifle velocities.  Their performance is reduced from pistol velocities.

The Gold Dot seems to be the best performer, with a bullet actually designed to perform out of a pistol-length barrel.  Vista product literature shows expansion in the approximately 0.35 inch range.  Which is the diameter of an un-expanded 9mm.

There are some YouTube videos that show the Gold Dot penetrating some forms of armor panels, but inconsistently.

Knowing the firearms industry the way I do, I suspect that the Gold Dot is not a regular armor piercer, because if it were, the ATF would take a giant shit on them and then they would open themselves up to lawsuits for selling cop-killer bullets.  My suspicion is that the armor panels being tested on are not the best quality armor.  I certainly wouldn’t start carrying a 5.7 loaded with Gold Dots in case of a bad guy wearing armor.  Any plates rated to stop rifles will stop this.  The only defeats I saw were on handgun-only rated panels.  Again, the irony is that plates have become so cheap and prolific that you are more likely to encounter a bad guy in rifle plates with plate carriers than you are in more expensive soft armor.

The one advantage that the 5.7 has is that the smaller diameter increases magazine capacity, but again, just barely.

The Five-seveN and Ruger 5.7 hold 20 rounds, and M&P 5.7 holds 22.  My SIG P320 holds 21 rounds of 9mm in a magazine that is only three-quarters of an inch longer, and my P365 holds 17 in a much more compact pistol.

My honest assessment is that the 5.7 is more of a novelty than a serious replacement for the 9mm in any sort of personal defense for concealed carry application.  The ballistic performance isn’t substantially better in any way.

If armor penetration were a concern, I’d rather have a 5.56 or 300 BLK pistol or SBR where I know my performance is more of a guarantee than a hit-or-miss YouTube test.

I have one that I haven’t shot in years.  I bought it when I was young and dumb and didn’t have kids and was making stupid money for a single guy.

Also, the ammo is more than $1 per round for a box of 50, so it’s an expensive gun to feed.

If you want one, this is America, you can go and buy one.  If I didn’t already have one I wouldn’t.

One for the FAFO Archives:

Dude attacks cameraman and pays the price ? pic.twitter.com/5tiZDuM7hZ

— Crazy Clips (@crazyclipsonly) August 3, 2023

Less lethal method applied, aggressor changed his behavior and other than bumping around like a fly in a window, he eventually goes home without major blood loss.

PS: Leave the foolish Ego home.

I love that I can trust the left to be an echo chamber. I caught an article in an online rag. They gave me the first two paragraphs, then said, “Pay for more.” I declined.

What I did do, was to use their title and ask Miss Google for links to the article. She obliged and gave me a list of about 20 different rags, all making the same complaint.

This is nothing new. Back in the days of BITNET I discovered an AP Wire feed. I could read the AP Wire just as if I were a real reporter.

One day, a story went by on the wire that I was interested in. That same story was in the University student paper. It was also covered in the big-city newspaper from a few counties away.

In reading the newspaper articles, it was obvious that they both got the base facts from the same source, the AP Wire. It was obvious that the by-line writers added no new facts to the story. The University paper gave a left leaning (Think 45degree lean to the left.), the city paper gave a more right leaning view. Call it about 5 degrees lean to the right. At the time, I would call the AP Wire story to be pretty neutral.

Here’s one of the headlines, “Winnie-the-Pooh book teaches Texas kids to ‘run, hide, fight’ in a shooting.” That is the most neutral headline I spotted.

They also had to tie it back to Uvalde. See, it is never the right time to discuss Second Amendment protected rights. It is always the anniversary of some event that makes it a third rail subject. It is always “too soon” after an event. The only thing you are allowed to do is listen to the preaching of elites blaming you for some assholes evil.

No, she is absolutely mistaken. The issue is that she will never be satisfied with what is done. Unless the answer is giving up all arms, she’s not going to be happy. If we were to give up all the guns, she would then be advocating removing knives from the subjects/slaves.

They hit all the major talking points, “Texas has some of the most lax gun laws”. Translation, you can exercise your right to keep and bear arms without a government approval slip. As a complete non sequiturs, they add As part of the Republican-led charge towards censorship in schools, meanwhile, Texas has banned more books that address LGTBQ+ issues, race, gender and abortion than any other state.

What the school boards and states allow into the schools has always been within their power. The issue the left has been that now the school boards and state are listening to the parents instead of the left.

Now, all of this noise is just that, noise. Run, hide, fight are the tactics advised by the FBI “should the unthinkable occur”. What all of this upset is really about is that somebody was giving power to the children.

“… the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Notice that it doesn’t say “guns”. It says “arms.” While the schools are supposed to be “gun free zones”, they aren’t.

I have had my children report that their teachers keep arms in their classrooms. The schools teach the teachers how to have arms in the classroom that don’t look like arms.

The schools talk about using fire extinguishers as weapons. One teacher kept a baseball bat next to her desk, not that she nor any of her students played baseball. Another had some big rocks on his desk.

All of these exist because a teacher thinks it is better to go hands on with a shooter and beat them to death with a club, rock, or fire equipment. They want their students to see the blood and gore of somebody having their head bashed in. All of that is so much better than two to center of mass and followup shots if the threat isn’t neutralized.

Let me start with something I posted in Facebook: If it can really happen, it is no longer dystopian but a warning.

This book is that and James Tarr is very good about it.

Dogsoldiers: Tarr, James: 9798616570864: Amazon.com: Books

This is one of those books that requires you to pause every so often and breathe. It is both depressing and uplifting at the same time but very grounded in what reality could be. It will not take you long to realize that no matter how it goes, a Hallmark Channel-type happy ending will not happen in the book, maybe if the protagonists are lucky, they will get a respite.

Click in the link above and get your copy ASAP. While you are it, get also started with the The Fallen Republic series, 2 books published so far and the third just finished and hopefully soon to be published.

I just got an email from Voices for a Safer Tennessee with a “bloody shirt” video:

First of all, it is important for the memory of your daughter and your self-respect to be used as a propaganda pawn by the same people that created the unsafe mess that took her life.  You are siding with the people who made schools the hunting preserve for psychopaths, allowed people with drug problems and mental illness to roam around unattended and go as far as to applaud and encourage their confused actions. You are supporting the people who will not give up their safety because they are not stupid, but truly think you are. You are rubbing elbows with those who will not place themselves between kids and a killer because they value their cowardly lives more than yours or anybody else’s.

But somehow, according to you and your handlers, I am uncaring because I refuse to bow to a manipulated mother and give up my rights.

Sorry, not happening.

Just a little bit of historical rewriting.
Hey, Lincoln liberated slaves so that means he was a Democrat.

It is all part of the same game.

Sorry for the lack of legal analysis these last few days. I have been fighting depression, but I think I’ve finally pulled myself out of it, for now.

Depression for me means it is hard to do anything that isn’t “fun”. Work slows down. Small things stop me from moving forward.

Yesterday included some loud noises, 18 of them to be more precise. The CETME had failure to feed on two rounds. The tip of the round started up the feed ramp and then jammed. The bolt carrier/bolt came over the top of the round and dinged the brass, locking it in place.

Clearing it was trivial, pull the charging handle back into the catch, flip the rifle upside down, the round falls out, slap the charging handle. BANG.

I find it interesting that a 300-500 word rant about idiots writing idiotic things gets more traction than long, detailed analysis of court filings.

Have a fantastic weekend, the comments are open.