It is that time of the year when Libertarians will smugly “explain’ to you why they are superior because they will vote for the Libertarian candidate rather than yours. They do this partially because they believe it will keep them above the incoming mayhem and some may secretly think after all is done and burnt, they will finally have a chance at governing.
I can’t help but think they believe in Manson’s Helter Skelter principle.
I like how, when challenged, the Libertarian apologists almist always revert to “HeGeMoNy oF tWo PaRtIeS!!!” and never actually explain why THEIR candidate is better, more qualified, or more in line with American values than the others. When it’s pointed out that their candidate is flawed, usually deeply so, or so in line with one or the other mainstream parties, they stick their fingers in their ears and scream about how we are being fooled.
The Libertarian Party is a joke, except they refuse to recognize the punchline.
A vote for the Libertarian Party is a vote for the Democrats, even though they’ll deny it till their dying day.
Funny, Democrats tell me that a vote for the LP is the same as a vote for the Republicans.
Who’s correct?
The swing-state party that loses by less than 1%
In Virginia, the Democrats were facing a tough race for governor, so they got one of their patsies to run on the Libertarian ticket. He drew enough votes away from the Republican candidate that the Clintons’ bagman became the governor. If you know of a case where it went the other way, I’m willing to hear it.
Usually, a vote for the Ls is a vote for the Ds, and a vote for the Greens is a vote for the Rs, because of the votes they pull from candidates who actually have a chance to win.
As a libertarian (small l) myself, I can explain part of that. Libertarians in general tend to be devoted to the idea that principle must be adhered to to the last, and without exception (thus the Libertarian Party motto is “The Party of Principle”). What they tend to lose sight of is that all principles, even the most precious, such as freedom of speech, have exceptions based on consequence. As I like to point to as an example, if I had a 30 minute recipe for a nuclear weapon anyone could cook up in their own home, I’d have the right to publish it on the internet as a matter of freedom of speech, seen as an absolute, but no sane person would not consider this an exception to the principle, and a case wherein suppression would be justified, due to the consequences.
See Robert Heinlein’s advice for dealing with party politics: work to get them to take your position, but once the campaigning starts, stand by them whether you were successful or not. That doesn’t mean you stick to the party regardless, it means accepting that the whole purpose of politics is compromise.
Which, as you said, if you cannot accept that not everyone shares your principles, you’re going to wander in the wilderness forever.
The big-L Libertarians sacrifice Practical at the altar of Principle. They, like Communists, dream of a world where the Ideal is achievable, and discount human nature’s effect.
Without human nature, Communism might work. So would Anarchy. Any government, all the way to no government, is eminently achievable, so long as humans don’t indulge in that pesky thing called self-interest. But since we ARE human, and self-interest cannot help but come first in our hierarchies of need, Communism will inevitably and quickly degenerate without fail into the tyranny of bureaucracy, while Anarchy always devolves to warlords.
The American system of (and I use the term properly here) Sovereign Citizens delegating their sovereignty (without giving it up) to a democratically elected republican government pits the anarchy against the bureaucracy, thereby mitigating (albeit not eliminating) some of the worst damage of human nature by setting it against itself, while setting strict limits upon the government to allow the rest of the people to get on with their lives.
This is a point the Libertarian Party has forgotten. Like Communists, they want their ideal, they want it NOW, and they refuse to consider any alternative (most especially any that shows them to be wrong about even the smallest points). If they can only get elected, they can bring about their Paradise.
As for me, until the Libertarians recognize ALL human life (ie, thse still unborn and in the womb) as possesive of the right to that life (absent a trial for criminal acts and appropriate sentence thereby depriving that right), I refuse to recognize them as possessing the intellectual consistency of gravel.
You would attempt to keep a 30-minute nuke recipe the exclusive knowledge of the American Government, the only group who has used them in anger? Because this infringement of 2A would massively shift the balance of military power in a centralizing direction, which then as a LINO you would explain didn’t mean what it obviously meant.
And here we have a prime example of a Libertarian ignoring practical for principle. It’s all “AmErIcA iS tHe OnLy OnE eVeR tO nUkE sOmEbOdY!” while patently ignoring the existence of multiple political and religious nut jobs who would use nukes INSTANTLY if they had them.
Must be American libertarian too. He’s focusing on the American govt as the ultimate evil. Understandable, but wrong.
And finally, we see him throw out LINO as the ultimate insult – justifying it by pointing out where someone has acknowledged that practical does not always follow principle.
@ Anon – your desire to allow everyone to have 30 minute nukes is as pie in the sky Neverland level as the communists expecting everyone to voluntarily and cheerfully work for the good of the state.
I mentioned nothing whatever in my hypothetical example about the government having the recipe, only myself. If our government, or any government, also had it it would be another factor to consider in the question of what the correct course to take would be. But then that’s the entire point; all factors need to be considered in any situation, all evidence weighed, and all consequences contemplated before a decision can be made. And yes, that does make me a LINO, and a RINO, and a CINO and any other “in name only” you care to deploy, because I refuse to turn off my mind and allow my decisions to be made for me by blind obedience to some authority, whether in the form of a person, a book, a set of principles or a set of rules. But then that’s the beauty of being a pure, true libertarian, or conservative, or anything else you care to name, isn’t it?. You just surrender responsibility for using your admittedly fallible human judgement to rationally evaluate a specific situation, and replace it with a knee jerk action dictated by someone or something other than yourself, thereby absolving yourself of all responsibility for judgement or action. I’ll continue to be quite proudly an “in name only” member of any and all groups, and take responsibility for my own actions.
Hypothetically, where would such a recipe be hosted? Like we need to analyze the situation in detail to be able to better combat it. ?
When I have voted for a Libertarian Party candidate, it’s been for the same reason I have voted for anyone else: I want THAT PERSON to have the job.
If I don’t want a candidate to have the job, they don’t get my vote. This usually means that I end up not voting in most races, but at least I can look at myself in the mirror afterwards.
I’ve voted for libertarian candidates on the local level if they have a track record and support policies I believe in.
That said the current Libertarian VP raises not just red flags but my hackles on some kind of gut level. Something about him makes me reach the nearest thing to defend myself. He feels angry, bitter, and way too eager to get his hands on some real power.
Listened to an interview with him on the We Like Shooting podcast and to almost every question asked he responded with how the current two party system has failed and republicrates in particular had failed. I think he maybe answered one or two questions with policy details or what he would do the entire time.
Despite assuring the hosts they had a fool proof plan to somehow win the electoral college this election cycle he refused to give up the secret sauce saying only “well if enough people vote”.
I remember the final week running up to the 2016 election when all the 3rd parties came out in favor of Hillary. At that point the Libertarian party went from a joke to malevolent in my mind. They gave up their principles, and I will never take them seriously again.
Also have issue with the fact that they have no spine to fight back clear and present dangers, like all the big tech censorship as of late. “Private companies can do as they please” clearly does not work, so there’s gotta be a limit somewhere.
“Private companies can do as they please” clearly does not work, so there’s gotta be a limit somewhere.
Your electricity is probably provided by a private company, which operates as a local monopoly. Multiple utilities trying to operate in an area gets … weird … so power and gas companies are allowed to monopolize localities, and in return they agree to (among other things) be transparent about their pricing structure, not gouge customers, and provide equal service to every subscriber.
It’s that last one we’re focusing on.
I see a potential parallel solution in that for social media giants. The government can allow them to operate as monopolies as long as they provide equal and identical service to every user and group, and can prove it in audits.
Think about it: The second your local power company decides to “pull the plug” on an election campaign’s office they don’t agree with, or that mostly-Hispanic neighborhood, or the city police station, etc., and for any reason besides documented account delinquency, they’d be fined into oblivion, officers and management removed and fined personally if not jailed, and taken over by the government until management can be replaced. And they’d deserve it.
We can and should be treating social media monopolies the same way.
Geographic monopolies are one thing.
But information services? They should be open and interoperable.
How sacred are their principles if they endorsed Hillary?
The Libertarians can take their moral superiority and shove it. The rest of us have an election to win and a Republic to save.
And I say that as a small-‘l’ libertarian. Their Prez and VP candidates this year are terrible.
The Libertarians lost my vote when they lacked the courage to nominate Vermin Supreme. I voted 3rd party in 2016 because I disliked both major candidates and knew Oregon would go Dem regardless but this year I am voting Trump out of pure spite.
Vermin Supreme! A chicken in every pot and a boot on every head!
Oregonian here, too. I voted Trump in 2016 not because I like him, but because he’s Not Hillary. He had his flaws then and still does now, but I admit I’ve been mostly impressed with him.
I’m voting for him in this election, too. I still don’t like him personally, but he’s been OK as President. Most importantly, he’s Not Biden.
But it’s going to be interesting watching the polls come in on election night. I predict Oregon will still go blue, but after the Antifa/BLM riots, the siege of the ICE building, and Kate Brown’s disastrous policies (including, but not limited to, refusing federal help with the violence, effectively telling Trump to pound sand while Portland burns), I think it will be MUCH closer than 2016 or 2018.
Trump taking Oregon is not out the realm of possibility, either; there was no way in 2016, but it could happen now, IF everyone who’s fed up with all the Blue Socialists get off their asses and VOTE.
I’m a simple man, I just want to see the Oregon Democrats get a thrashing at the state level so they lose their majority and stop Californication. What I fervently hope is that Trump flips a large metropolitan area and the National Popular Vote Compact kicks in and forces Oregon to go Republican in the Electoral College after Portland overwhelmingly votes Dem as usual.