This was an interesting conversation.
-Tango Pappa (Not the real name)
GH Hill I’d need to see some actual data on that, not just speculation. Pelvic girdle shots already don’t have an anatomical justification to prioritize them over the CNS targets, be they 10mm or other.-GH Hill (AKA Mad Ogre)
Trevor Putnam http://madogre.com/?page_id=1172
-GH Hill
Medically Reviewed and US Army Approved.Tango Pappa
GH Hill I scrolled through it, didn’t see anything that indicated testing of pistol bullets on the human pelvis caused shattering (link below indicates that’s not the case), or that shattered pelvic bones resulted in a faster or more definitive cessesation of hostilies than a CNS hit.-GH Hill
Trevor Putnam No one is saying a pelvic hit is a faster incapacitation than CNS. Don’t be thick.Tango Pappa
GH Hill then I guess I’m confused as to why anyone would prioritize it as a target. A pelvis with a centimeter hole in it isn’t a shattered pelvis, and isn’t a fight stopper, even if it was.-Miggy Gonzalez
So you volunteer to take a shot in the crotch to prove your point?Tango Pappa
Miggy Gonzalez it’s a non-question, no one ever volunteers to take a shot anywhere, to prove their point.
The real question is, when faced with someone who means to do you lethal harm as quickly as possible, will you aim for a CNS hit to stop the fight, or the pelvis, to perpetuate a meme about shooting people in the dick? Because all the research points to the first one.-GH Hill
Miggy Gonzalez Evidently, Trevor here just can’t contemplate someone wearing Body Armor, and that a pelvic point of aim is a lot easier than a headshot.-Miggy Gonzalez
I am going to shoot at whatever is available to cause pain and lots of bleeding. You yourself admitted that no one volunteers to take a shot and it seems silly to wait to obtain a head shot because you have some sort of dogma about the perfect placement. That only occurs if your opponent is polite and dumb enough to give you a chance.
I shan’t gamble on the kindness of those trying to inflict me harm.-GH Hill
Miggy Gonzalez That dude is being purposefully argumentative. I blocked him.
This came about after I posted a pic of the Dick Shooters patch. In the middle of the argument, I posted Clint Smith’s now famous video:
Center Mass is defined at the middle of whatever is available to put rounds on the offending party. That is what you aim for because it is available and in real life, with more holes, hypovolemic shock comes faster if the coconut above the head is not easily available, or the chest is covered in protective crap. And let’s not forget pain as a behavioral modificatory.
By the way, the guy dropped me as FB friend. Probably my position was pure heresy.
It’s like some people don’t get it. Gun fights are never antiseptic in real life. Clint has, in my opinion, the correct exposition on shoot what you can, when you can, when you have to shoot. Just because it’s not an instant show stopper doesn’t mean it’s not potentially effective.
Exactly.. shoot what’s available to hit. “Social media” is chock full of “expurts” that are quick to tell you they know it all. I stopped engaging them and block them.
Dick shots have another thing going for them, if you miss, your round is headed downward, and less likely to hit an innocent down range.
This is an excellent point and great from the civic minded citizen’s standpoint. We’re responsible for every round sent downrange and the junkular region is a center of mass kind of target vs a relatively small and mobile target ontop of the torso.
It’s a funny thing, when guns come out into the open no one stands still. Some move faster than others, but all people begin to move…. toward somewhere else. So, if someone comes into the place I’m standing in public and has a gun in hand, I’m going to start moving toward safety while bringing my own gun up to enter the potential fight if needed.
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Some bad guys with guns stand still while selecting targets to shoot, and some move while selecting targets to shoot, but whether moving or not while they shoot, they both have one thing in common, their pelvic girdle hips area remains in one place longer than any other part of their body, even if they attempt to move to a bladed position.
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It might not be more than a second, but it is long enough to put more than one shot on that area of the body, as opposed to other areas of the moving body. And usually in most cases, that area of the person is larger than other areas. In contrast the center mass chest area moves first, usually ducking down or moving to one side or the other, and the head follows along in the same direction.
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Fact is in most cases a percentage of the time, the pelvic area is the easiest non-defended place to put shots on target, it moves last, moves the slowest, and at least is as large as any other large part of the body. And I will argue the most painful area to take several rounds of a fluid transfer monolithic projectile.
Out in the Real World, one takes the Best Shot That Is Available The Soonest. Will a 230 grain +P .451 projectile shatter a hip? Almost never. Will it apply more stress to whomever is attacking you? Absolutely.
So will a round in the knee. Or foot. Or groin. Or ass. Will that stress impair that Whomever’s ability to hurt you? Almost certainly. Will it impair them enough? Maybe, maybe not, but when SHTF the goal is to Put Rounds On Target – as many rounds as possible as fast as you can hit with them to prevent being hurt – and you have to start that process somewhere so take the target that is offered first and build from there. Eventually, the head, or good targets near it, may be offered, but waiting for that can be fatal. Find something else to do while you’re waiting for that and that “something else” is Putting Rounds On Target.
Same dumb logic, different sport: A knockout punch is the only one that drops a boxer. Therefore, punches to lats, kidneys, stomach and ears are useless to train for.
Clint Smith prioritizes pelvic shots over head shots. Gave us a great demonstration on that. That’s good enough for me.
There is some literature on this. The probability of incapacitation due to a ballistic wound to the pelvis is a function, as you might expect, of bullet/fragment size and velocity. The Ballistics Research Lab did a study of this for fragmentation injuries, and the “non-tumbling flechette” data probably applies. The result is that it’s a near linear curve for non-tumbline flechette and sigmoid curve with a tumbling flechette with very low probability of incapacitation with small round/low velocity and high probability with large round/high velocity. See: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD0359774.pdf. In particular, look at the curve on page 62.
Similarly, a study on skeletal effects using a plastic pelvis model and gelatin found little damage from a 9mm FMJ, but massive damage from a .44 Rem. Magnum. See: Bolliger, S.A., Ampanozi, G., Kneubuehl, B.P. and Thali, M.J., 2014. Gunshot to the pelvis–experimental ballistics and forensic radiology. Journal of Forensic Radiology and Imaging, 2(1), pp.17-19.
The Bollinger article can be found at https://www.academia.edu/download/42465863/Gunshot_to_the_pelvis__experimental_ball20160209-30080-1o68hhx.pdf
So, it’s not just “are pelvic shots are incapacitating.” It’s “are pelvic shots incapacitating with a given load.”
My apologies on he bad link to the Bollinger article. It works when clicked from Google Scholar, but not when cut and pasted to my comment. I don’t know how to edit it out.