Don’t complain now because the company had to make a business decision to make their customers and workers feel more comfortable and/or safe. Remember that YOU are responsible. YOU forced their hand. YOU are the reason they made this choice.
We have turned the debate into a joke. Yes, we are all responsible.
Whether you are an (A) “in your face activist” as previously mentioned, or a (B) gun owner who doesn’t agree with them but remains silent and thereby complicit, we are all responsible. Own it.
via Practical Tactical Podcast: This Is Why We Cant Have Nice Things – Starbucks.
Silence gives consent. I know I am guilty of (B) because I did not want to add to the rift that was building up between CCW and OC since we are all supposed to be on the same side. The problem is that the favor was not returned by a group of Exhibitionists that screwed it up for both sides of the carry equation.
And you will hear “But it is my Right and Fuck You!” probably coming from people who have done nothing for the Second Amendment cause or just maybe hit the Pay Pal Donate button in a website….if that. Ours is a war of attrition against 60 years of encroachment and that is not solved in between commercial breaks of Gun Stories or Top Shot. You do not change the perceptions of people brainwashed for over decades on the evils of guns overnight. It takes time, patience and politeness. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 did not erase all the racial problems by 1965 but yet some in our culture firmly believe that the Heller and McDonald decisions cured all Gun Control ailments because it said so in some Internet Gun Forum.
Lets see if I can make it more clear: If you decide to fight for the rescue of our Second Amendment Right, you are not doing so for what you can get NOW but what we can get for our descendants. That means that like Moses, you ain’t gonna see the Promise Land of resetting the clock back to 1933 or at least in my lifetime I don’t expect it and probably in yours too. But just because I will not see the profit, it does not mean that I will stop working for it or sabotage the cause by acting like a dick.
Now stop acting like Occupy Wall Street idiots with a better grasp of personal hygiene and lets keep the BS to a minimum.
I promise to do My part….after I kiss Debbie W-S and S. Jackson-Lee……I Will wash out My mouth with Starbucks Coffee…….. 🙂
If yer guna swap spit with them two liberal American traitors don’t ferget yer DENTAL DAM !
Frankly as someone who has yet to carry, I always thought carry was ‘out of sight until needed’. It’s part of that ‘responsibility’ aura when one carries. You do not advertise that fact until the moment it is needed, and you keep calm.
Welp, as it has been said, a company that has been neutral in all this is now taken sides because they needed to. They’ll still give me my burnt coffee (well, it tastes better than dunkin donuts anyways) but they won’t appreciate it if I’m an arse with a gun.
As someone that’s been OC’ing for damn near ten years, I agree. What brought about SB’s ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy on ‘weapons’, wasn’t people like me that was polite, courteous, tipped well, and carried my Kahr P9 in such a manner that most people have never even noticed. No, what brought this about were the baffoons carrying their long guns, staging SB’s ‘appreciation days’, and other overall obnoxiousness. How many god damned times did they try telling us that they just wanted to be Switzerland?!
But no, some people just couldn’t help themselves. More and more frequently we heard people from ‘our’ side saying, “Starbucks respects our second amendment rights”. No. No they don’t. They want to sell coffee and be left the hell alone.
>:-[
So the conclusion is, that we should only exercise our rights if it doesn’t make the hoplophobes and anti-self defense asses soil themselves. I have not seen anyone brandishing their openly carried guns, nor have I read of it. I have read and seen the anti-liberty jerks screaming about how we have the gall to peacefully exercise our rights. That is what Starbucks is addressing: the screaming assholes.
It’s this kind of dumbassery that caused this:
http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy214/mskittie40/things.png
Seriously that’s dumb. That does not help our cause. I don’t mind rifles at a rally, but in Starbucks?
No.
You will exercise your Rights with honor and humility.
You will exercise your Rights remembering that a bunch of guys wearing powdered wigs pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor so you can have them.
You will exercise your Rights also remembering that citizens in other states have not achieved the Right To Carry Openly and they need your help.
You will exercise your Rights by not becoming the caricature of the irresponsible Gun Owner our Opposition endears to maintain.
You will exercise your Rights by not taunting or embarrassing authorities but to politely tell them and teach them the finer points of the law and our constitution.
You will exercise your Rights by understanding that you may have to endure discomfort at the hands of the stupid and the uniformed and again, behave honorably because we are all in this for the long run.
Case in point:
Amen, brother.
And each new sign signified the same thing – that the Princes of the Plains and the Tribesmen of the Cold Hillsides were about to beat the hell out of each other again.
This in itself wouldn’t be so bad, except that the Princes of the Plains and the Tribesmen of the Cold Hillsides always elected to beat the hell out of each other in the Forest, and it was always the Dwellers in the Forest who came off worst in these exchanges, though as far as they could see it never had anything to do with them.
-The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy: Life, the Universe, and Everything, by Douglas Adams
I almost feel sorry for Starbucks.
I agree with Travis. It was OC’ers in general, it was the dicks who OC’ed. I think people couldn’t differentiate between the two- just like you said you didn’t want to say anything because CC’ers want to make a rift with the OC’ers.
We need to have a line in our community- don’t fight against our rights, and don’t be a dick when you fight for our rights. OC’ers in Cali were not dicks, but the OC’ers in SB were.
To steal a quote from *shudder* Josh Sugarmann (of the VPC):
Sound about right?
Does RKBA mean anything, or is it just the “RK” portion that I get to do?
I understand that OC might be bad PR, but Rosa Parks got in trouble, too.
What about “normalization” and a return to the 1950s era outlook on guns?
Can we never reclaim it? Have we changed this much as a nation?
OC is not bad PR. Bad-stupid-dickhead behavior OC is bad PR.
The “RK” part is pretty well established. It’s the types of arms you can keep (some states still have comprehensive AWBs) that we’re still working on on that front.
The “and bear” part is trickier. Current legal precedent in many places seems to say OC can be OK, and CCW can be OK, but you don’t necessarily need both if you have one or the other, especially if CCW permits are shall-issue (ask Miguel and Robb Allen about FL).
I’ll acknowledge that Rosa Parks got in trouble, but look at the difference between her demeanor and the “@$$-hat” OC’ers. Rosa Parks did NOT get up in the white folks’ faces saying “Hell, no, I won’t move. It’s my right to sit right here, you can’t make me move, and the bus company is on my side.” She DID stay put, saying her feet hurt and politely asking the white folks to sit someplace else. She got in trouble, but she was polite and civil the whole time.
As far as “normalization,” it’s a slow process. At times, excruciatingly slow. We have to overcome 60+ years (read: 2-3 generations) of bad PR. That will not happen overnight. It probably won’t happen this generation. We need to plan accordingly, and play the long game. We’ve made some great strides in the last 20 years or so, but there’s a long way to go.
The nation has changed. The political pendulum swings left and right over time, but the left has controlled one branch of the government or another (or both) for the overwhelming majority of the last century, and even the right has slowly been drifting left. That’s even more bad PR to overcome.
Can it be done? I’ll let Mike Vanderboegh answer this one:
I, for one, refuse to let that happen. Not when we could change public opinion – make “normalization” happen – with minimal, well-thought-out effort. It doesn’t take much; we just have to do it right.
Normalizing open carry, and therefore, firearms in general, is exactly what most open carriers are attempting to do, (see opencarry.org for more info).
When or if someone notices I am wearing a firearm, they also see a normal guy doing normal things. I’m pushing my son in his stroller, I’m buying groceries, I’m taking a walk with my wife and kid, etc. etc.
Yes, the asshats that parade around with long guns or stage demonstrations will always garner negative attention. Just try not put us all in the same light. I know for a fact that I have helped people become more comfortable with firearms in general because I DO OC. I know this because they’ve come up and told me. This could not have happened if I had continued to CC.
Travis, that was not my intention and I do apologize if I came across like that.
Not at all Miguel. My comments were partially for Archer, but mostly as a general vent. I guess I’m just annoyed because I know OC is going to take it in the chin for this even though the vast majority of us are undeserving of the coming ridicule.
There was already a rift between OC and CC. This will only compound it.
“Normalizing open carry, and therefore, firearms in general, is exactly what most open carriers are attempting to do”
I never said they weren’t, and my apologies if that’s how it sounded. I fully support OC, and I’d do it myself if my city were friendlier about it.
“I know OC is going to take it in the chin for this even though the vast majority of us are undeserving of the coming ridicule.”
I agree. I also think some people – especially the antis and certain members of the press – will also try to paint CC’ers and gun owners in general as the same as the @$$-hat crowd. It’s SOP. We’re not supposed to judge all Muslims based on the actions of an extreme few. Or illegal immigrants. Or minorities of any color. But somehow it’s OK to do it for gun owners. I think we’ll all be hit with the spatter.
“There was already a rift between OC and CC. This will only compound it.”
I agree here, too. I think it’s ridiculous there is a rift, but here we are. Arguing over which is “better” – OC or CC – to me makes as much sense as arguing over which is better: semi-autos or revolvers. It’s the caliber wars all over again!
I believe, if you feel called to carry, then it’s more important that you carry than what or how you carry. I just wish more “activists” shared that belief.
“I’d do it myself if my city were friendlier about it.”
I live just outside the liberal bastion of Seattle WA. 🙂
“I believe, if you feel called to carry, then it’s more important that you carry than what or how you carry. I just wish more “activists” shared that belief.”
Agreed. 🙂
Thanks to all for the good points above.
I’m going to end up disagreeing…sort of.
First, I agree as to the “best” way to obtain the goal of removing infringement upon our freedom. Don’t be a dick. I agree that the forcing of Starbucks into a position did not go well and will not go well.
BUT…
We need the extremists. You can’t find the edges without someone willing to push the boundaries. We won’t know the limits and the reactions without someone to go over that line. Doing so carefully and with planning is sound strategy. Then again, we also need someone to go screaming right past those lines, basically as a landmine detector. AKA nobody, seriously, is going to load a shotgun in DC and load the video to Youtube who’s seriously considering a long term plan. It’s frankly not a good idea by any rational process I can think of. But now we know what they’ll do if someone does go that far. Being careful can find the borders. Being Nucking Futs gives insight to everyone else as to what lies way beyond the borders.
Being careful tests where *we* think the borders are. Screaming yahoos show where they aren’t (as in, the line is somewhere BEFORE there). Both are good info.
Think exploration. If you want to find out what is where you carefully map where you are and map along the route. When you hit the edge of what you know and know you can get back from, you go just a bit, then go back to safety. At which point the Atlantic might never be crossed. [side note: there are technical and factual issues if you take that comparison too far and too literally, play along please]
Most of the nutjobs headed off the map are not coming back. The ones that do send back information are finding things that we can use.
It would be nice if they were less of a spectacle about it, but you use what you have.
The problem with the use of extremists is that they play directly into the caricature & narrative of the opposition. Make no mistake, we are not out of the woods by a far mile and we have every single media outlet against us. The only way we can secure our way of life is by demonstrating we are not the irrational baboons with guns they say we are and extremist OCers are playing right into their hands.
They are gonna milk the Starbucks thing for all it is worth and gonna make us bleed for it. Open Carry of an AR is NOT normal. It might be in the future, but it is not now. And it is a right, but that does not mean you have to shove it in people’s faces because that only creates a shove-back… and we lose.
Now, let me ask you: Gays deserve the same rights as everybody else including the right to peacefully gather. However, do you think the average gay thinks this type of extremist are good for their course? To be considered as normal part of the American society? (Warning… seriously extreme graphic content on the link.NSFW or many other places)
http://www.zombietime.com/up_your_alley_2008/