Via ‘The View From North Central Idaho.
A major point of disagreement among Second Amendment supporters was how to approach the problem. One group claimed anything but full and complete recognition of Second Amendment rights was futile and counter-productive. The argument was: any lesser legislation, moving incrementally toward full Second Amendment rights, would only legitimize infringements on those rights. They were/are the “All or Nothing” group. Some called/call themselves “principled”.
The other group of Second Amendment supporters argued Second Amendment rights could be restored bit by bit. Pass legislation first, for a permit system. Keep reforming and improving the permit system. Reduce requirements, reduce fees, reduce “gun free zones”. Keep on incrementally improving the law, until Second Amendment rights were fully restored. They were/are the “Incrementalists”. In the middle 1990’s it was not clear if either approach would be effective.
Twenty years later, it was clear. Incrementalism worked.
Dean Weingarten
May 3, 2021
GUN WATCH: Restoring Second Amendment Rights: Incrementalism vs All or Nothing
Americans do not enjoy having ANYTHING shoved down their throats and that includes restoration of the Bill of Rights. They will oppose you on principle and vote solidly against your position.
If you are reasonable, patient and take the time to engage with people, you will have them on your side in no time. But tell them “Fuck you, mu rights and shove it up your communist ass!” and they will tune out and go with the opposite view even if it will eventually go against them.
I firmly believe that the worst political tactic related to Gun Rights in Florida was the Open Carry Fishing Trips tactically decked out in rifles, pistols and chest carriers like you were going to invade Tampa Bay. It was not inviting to the folks, it was threatening and gave fodder to the opposition.
I guess in this case Covid helped gun rights in Florida: people stayed home rather than go do stupid gun parades at the local fishing pier. We did get two Pro Gun bill passed this year, right?
CPSA banned cammo for shooting clays. BUT when a nutter killed 11 people with a shotgun, no one suggested banning shotguns, as they did after Dunblane nutter and Police inspector co-conspirator shot 16.
How you dress impacts peoples view of you
You keep claiming that the fishing events hurt the movement, but you’ve never actually shown any evidence it had a negative effect.
If it was as bad as you claim, then it would have derailed the incremental approach.
You’re the chest thumper about this.
What I find interesting about the all or nothing crowd is how they see incremental approaches to firearm restrictions as an effective way to disarm the public. Camel’s nose/slippery slope and all of that. In other words, they know a slow/steady incremental approach works, otherwise, they would not be so concerned about a minor restriction.
But, when it comes to gun rights, well… NOPE, incremental improvements are not enough. If they are so sure that any restriction inevitably leads to total gun confiscation, why are they adamant that a small loosening of regulations will never snowball into what they want?
Emotions I guess.
Would I like to see the Gun Control Act of 1934 and all its amendments repealed? Absolutely. Is that going to happen any time soon? Absolutely not. Can we make progress incrementally? Again, based on the evidence, absolutely. We have gone from nearly every state being a “may issue” state for concealed carry in the ’70s, to a majority of states being “shall issue” along with a growing number of states passing “constitutional carry.”
How do you think the demoncrats have managed to get this country destroyed? Incremental steps, one at a time.
Incrementalism and state by state tactics do work. They are also hard freaking work and time consuming. In Minnesota it took Joel Rosenberg (RIP) and MN Gun Owners Civil Rights Association YEARS to get Shall Issue, including have the law overturned in the courts and having to do it all over again.
I still remember the lies like “blood in the streets,” and “OK Corral!” that were used to try to scare the average citizens. Because Florida and Texas and so many other states already had Shall Issue, and we could point to the facts there was no bloodshed.
Can anyone point to a state going from No Issue or May Issue to Constitutional Carry in one swoop? Certain People have made a nice living pushing “All or Nothing” and have sabotaged and stopped good gun bills because they didn’t go far enough.
Yes, incremental steps towards the correct interpretation of the 2nd Amendment work.
But… They only work when there is a group shouting for complete and utter destruction of any and all arms control laws.
Just like the Gays, who argued and fought for their ‘rights’ and acceptance by both incremental means and by being loud and obnoxious and in everyone’s faces.
So… Poo on you all who only want incremental changes. If you only want incremental changes, only want a slow and miniscule creep towards arms freedom, you are pandering to the leftist arms-control movement. “Oh, they only want this, well, we’ll make it ten times harder to try the next time.”
And… if you are one of the jackalopes who is screaming that the 2A is all about guns, well, you are a French Shower Sack. Because the 2A is about all arms. You know, weapons and arms and armor and the whole shebang. Brass knuckles, swords, switchblades, guns, cannon, body armor, household armor, car armor, armed ships, armed planes the whole everything. But your continued focus on only Gunz, Gunz, Gunz… see the previous paragraph. You are playing into the Leftists’ control plan. Ban everything and then give them bupkis and squat in return.
For Pete’s sake, We should collectively be all standing up and shouting “The Full 2A! The Full 2A!” But because We aren’t, and when part of us does say TF2A! and another part of us says “We thing those creeps are wrong and bad and we won’t listen to anything they say” the leftists are taking more and more and more and more.
The control freaks are losing in many of the states. But they are winning in many others, and winning on the Federal level and winning on the financial level (attacks on arms suppliers and buyers by the banks and such) and winning on the Media front and winning in the public education front and and and…
Doesn’t matter what we do incrementally if the overall goal of us isn’t full restoration. Doesn’t matter what we do incrementally if the controllers are winning everywhere else.
Mayhaps you , dear host, and others like you could quit screwing it up for the rest of us, maybe even join us and stand united.
Yeah! We should all march down to the closest Starbucks with our slung ARs and DEMAND to be allowed to carry them everywhere, right before we all go fishing!
I would merely ask how deep your dedication goes.
Do you ignore any and all infringing laws?
If not, then you are big a supporter of incremental restoration as the next guy.
Though I do agree with your overall point, frequently we focus on one or the other when indeed it should be both.
As in any movement, when the incrementalists and the absolutists work together, things are accomplished.
Incrementalists NEED the absolutists to move the Overton Window, to be pointed at as the crazies, now isn’t our compromise in the same direction so much more palatable?
Absolutists NEED the incrementalists to take advantage of that Overton Window, to be the “voice of reason” in the face of absolutism, and to keep edging the acceptable and the commonplace ever closer to the true goals.
We watched that happen with homosexuality. We watch it happen with socialism. We watch it happen with liberty movements, with anarchists, with communists, with many, many different and often diametrically opposed causes, vying against each other in an effort to sway the culture and bring about their own particular issue of change.
The Mohammedans call it “jihad.” Both the drastic gestures and the gentle pushes have their own place. Whether draconian laws or suicide bombers, the absolutists scare people with how crazy they are, while the incrementalists “normalize” Islam to the common folk, pointing out the differences between themselves and “those crazy people over there.”
But we gun people? Our incrementalists deride the absolutists as pie in the sky detriments who might scare the hoi polloi. And our absolutists despise the incrementalists, calling them traitors.
We see this in the small scale, such as the above post and replies. We see this in the large, with NRA being pitted against the other 2nd Amendement advocacy groups.
We need to cut it out.
Call out those who “carry at” the public at large, daring them to scream in fear. Call them out as over the top aggressive. But you need them to make yourself seem reasonable to the politicians and the public.
Call out the compromisers, point out how lessening of unconstitutional restrictions is still violating the constitution, and drag that Overton Window towards the rule of our nation’s founding document, one piece at a time.
But stop eating our own, and recognize that we are ALL needed here. Incrementalists are NOT traitors. Absolutists are NOT lunatics. The sooner this is recognized, the sooner both “sides” can actually cooperate, and the more we can accomplish the faster.
Florida did not get where it is by one side alone. It has taken so long to keep progressing because gun rights advocates dont like how each other do business, and denounce the other side constantly. A more perfect wedge to roll back the Constitution even further by the tyrants could not be designed – and Florida HAS advanced. Slowly, very slowly.
Texas is another great example, and probably is ONLY on the verge of pseudo-Constitutional carry because Charles Cotton (one of the better incrementalists, but one of the worst anti-absolutists out there) is far too busy trying to cover his ass and corrupt buddy Wayne at the NRA to bother with lobbying against the Texas bill in the back corridors of Austin.
As for me? I am an absolute incrementalist. I will take whatever compromise I can get, if and only if it is in my favor. Whether that be the whole cake, or merely a slightly larger slice, i will take it, and then come back for more.
It is time – far past time – for the gun culture and liberty lovers of all stripes to understand the concept.
It’s for DAMN sure our enemies understood amd internalized it a LONG time ago.
In case it wasn’t clear above, I am HIGHLY critical of both incrementalists and absolutists when they are at each other’s throats, as is evident above. I WANT to declare “a pox on BOTH your houses!,” except I can’t, because I am both absolutist AND incrementalist, and I recognize that we need BOTH of you.
So grow up, and stop the chest beating, on all sides, about how one way is better than the other, and who is and is not a True Activist in The Cause.