Yesterday I got into a fight with Bitter in the comments on one of my posts.
At the time, I had no idea who she was.
I got mad, some insults were exchanged, and for that I apologize.
In all the rage, I lost control of the message I was trying to send. So here it is, in a more calm fashion. I hope Bitter and everybody else will understand what I was trying to say.
I remember shortly after I moved to Illinois that Moore v. Madigan was decided. The 7th Circuit Court came down with a severe case of Constitutional Principles and decided that Illinois needed to have concealed carry.
There was a kicker, the Court imposed a time frame. If Illinois didn’t put together a CCW law fast, the state would default to Constitutional Carry. This was the one ace that the Republicans had up their sleeves. If they didn’t get Shall Issue, they could hold up the bill long enough to squeeze the Democrats against a concealed carry free-for-all.
Let the legislative games begin!
I followed that with bated breath. I watched the IL State legislature live stream.
I watched as Democrat State Rep and Democrat State Senator after Democrat State Rep and Democrat State Senator made the same argument over training requirements: if the training was too easy, anybody could get a permit.
It was crystal clear that training had nothing to do with gun safety. A background check was mandatory, possession of a FOID was mandatory, fingerprints were optional but cut the wait time for a permit from 90 days to 30 days.
But there were a lot of people who could pass background checks. That alone wasn’t enough of a hurdle. The Democrats didn’t like the idea of CCW and they were going to make it as onerous as possible to obtain. What they settled on was 16 hours of training, including classroom time and live fire.
The courses were two full working days of a weekend. In a time with a down economy, that made if very hard for working class individuals who had to put in some weekend time at work to take the class and get the permit.
I remember driving through the driving snow early in the morning on a Saturday and Sunday to take my CCW class from two Chicago PD officers in Bolingbrook.
I remember the classes. It was essentially the same four hour course I took to get my FL CCW, repeated three times. Intermixed was commentary by these two officers, who made it crystal clear that they were not fans of CCW. They reminded us that we weren’t cops, we weren’t going to be cops, we aren’t ever going to be as good as cops, but the law is the law and they get $500 a head to do the training.
It was also impressed on us what we had to do to avoid getting shot by the Chicago PD because they will shoot first and ask for CCW permits later.
Then we went to the range.
Some 30 days and $700 later (training, ammo, permit fee, fingerprint fee), I got my permit in the mail.
That whole experience taught me a lesson.
Given the change, people who have no respect for gun rights will use any bureaucratic tool they can as an impediment to gun rights.
Most of us out shot the cops doing the shooting demonstration. What we learned about gun safety was the four basic rules. The only useful new information was about Illinois Code 430 ILCS 66/1 stickers and not to go into places that have them.
I said it before and I’ll say it again, minatory training is nothing more than a poll tax and a literacy test on gun rights.
The fact is I will NEVER trust a politician that talks about mandatory training when it comes to guns.
I’m all for training. Training is good. Mandatory training has nothing to do with gun safety and everything to do with putting hurdles in the way of gun ownership.
I do not trust a politician to set training standards in good faith.
I am not an advocate of Constitutional Carry, I am all for background checks on CCW. In Alabama, Indiana, and South Dakota, all you have to do is go to the Sheriff’s Office, pay a fee and have your background check run. Indiana mails you your permit. Alabama prints it right there and gives it to you like a drivers license. South Dakota used to just give you a receipt and mail you the final copy. Now SD has two permits, one good in SD and one that has reciprocity with Minnesota and Nebraska that includes training.
The total list of states I have or had CCW permits in is (in order): Florida, Indiana, South Dakota, Utah, Arizona, Illinois, Nebraska, Alabama.
I have run the gamut from $10 and out the door to $700 and a full weekend of training.
Nothing across all those states made me better or worse at gun safety or gun handling than I already was going into it. All the differences did was put bigger and bigger hurdles in my way that required me to jump over, from spending hours to days in training and taking off work to get finger prints and sign affidavits in front of notaries.
Want me to prove that I am not a felon before carrying a gun? Fine.
Want me to take another stupid course and shoot a B-27 at 5, 7, and 10 yards? Fuck you.
I will if I have to, to comply with existing law.
I will fight the implementation of new training requirements.
Especially if, like in Massachusetts, the training is strictly for gun ownership.
I do not care if it’s a class given by the president of the local NRA chapter, and a life long gun rights advocate. That the government mandated that I take a class with an approved curriculum to exercise my fundamental civil liberties is abhorrent.
I will not let politicians put hurdles in front of exercising gun rights any higher than current bans on prohibited persons.
As soon as a politicians makes training necessary, they have the power to make it onerous and inconvenient as they want to gatekeep people from exercising it.
I will not put myself at that mercy.
This is not a point I am wiling to compromise on.
“I do not trust a politician to set training standards in good faith.” Well, naturally not. CA, NJ, NY, MA, MD all have CCW … ON THE BOOKS. But they don’t operate the law in good faith, so virtually NOBODY can actually exercise their 2A rights. — Andrew
“The Democrats didn’t like the idea of CCW”
Of course not. Citizens with concealed carry permitss are hard to spot, and make it harder for Democrats to get away with shooting up schools or malls or night clubs or…
Don’t feel bad. I dunno who Bitter is either.
You never read Shall Not Be Questioned?
Just looked back through the past few days, didn’t find it. Not ringing a bell, sorry.
She’s a blogger! OK. Nope, still don’t know her by name. Reputation only carries you as far as someone has heard of you.
I stopped reading Shall Not Be Questioned. I can’t remember why.
If I did the ceremonial unlinking thing there’d be a post to help me figure it out.
This hits the mark. When I first read the new requirements for armed school staff the 132 hours struck me as were going to make it so that 1: it’s near impossible
85% vs 80% for cops 2: it’s so long you won’t have time or it’s during business hours. Anyways I’m looking into it for where I’m at and I’ll see if this is yet another part of the bill that is worthless.
I think training is a great idea. Everyone should seek training. Requiring it? Somehow that equals “Infringement” to me. Nope that would be unconstitutional.
Up north here we use the concealed carry course developed by the NRA originally for women in Florida. While it does involve a miniscule amount of shooting, that is because it was designed for someone who has never handled a gun before. It also isn’t necessary as we are a Constitutional Carry State but the license is good for reciprocity. The State can also only charge enough to cover the costs involved.
The class was also very useful in learning what the actual laws say as opposed to what people think they say. Federal law does not prohibit carrying a firearm on federal property, it is just a federal offense to commit a crime with a firearm on federal property. Granted, if your State law prohibits carrying in a post office that now makes it a federal offense as well. Also, up here, not carrying in a “bar” is actually based on the type of liquor license (beverage dispensary) so all bars and most restaurants are out.
Then again, up here in NH the concealed carry license requires filing out a form and paying a small fee ($10?), then waiting a small number of days to see if the authorities find a valid reason to say no. And that is all. No training requirement, no photo, no fingerprints. Towns are explicitly prohibited from adding any requirements or changing the form. Also, the list of licensees is secret, excluded from public records rules. The state takes that so seriously they don’t even disclose the *number* of permit holders.
And of course, as of last year we have Constitutional Carry so you only need the license if you want to take advantage of a reciprocal agreement that requires one.
That damn 2 weekend days course is what is preventing me from getting my ccw permit. I have a few different instructors as customers who would give me a deal, but the class times i just can’t make with my other commitments.
As for Bitter and Shall Not, they just don’t post as much anymore. I still check in there daily, however.
I used to not be 100% sold on constitutional carry until I realized a permit is not an extra layer of verification, it is just a buerecrstic hassle and tax pad to the state. How do you square the not trusting training requirements with requiring a permit? I suppose you answered it by saying or inplyig it must be shall issue, but then what is the point?
Past the tax and bueracracy part, I came to realize a permit is meaningless. There are already laws regarding buying, carrying, and using a gun. Another law that requires a permit adds nothing but a tax and another charge a proesecupr can bargain with.
My feeling is this. You are walking along and a cop notices that you have a gun on you. Maybe he sees it print, whatever.
How does he know that you are a law abiding citizen and not a criminal?
Do a background check. Of course, he’ll do that while you are sitting on the ground with handcuffs on, and he has your gun.
Or he can ask “do you have CCW permit?” and bypass all that. I see a CCW permit at a verified background check that I whip out and show that I am not a prohibited person.
Good point, there is a certain utility in the affirmative defense a permit offers.
The response question might be, what business does the officer have to stop and question you if you are not currently engaged in criminal activity or the officer has a clear articulable suspicion that you are?
Overall though, I’d agree that a strict shall issue, walk into your police department/town hall and walk out in 15 minutes with permit for the cost of a background check, is a very acceptable compromise.
The city I lived in in CT took 7 months to issue me mine in clear violation of the 30 day requirement, I honestly can’t say if it is a law. Not to mention the recent doubling of all permit fees by the state be a wonderful add on.
Virginia being an open carry state, the mere presence of a firearm cannot be used as RAS. There must be some other crime in evidence even for a stop. Presenting your permit is required upon request if a concealed handgun (the only thing permitted) becomes evident to law enforcement.
You seem to think that a “cop” should be able to question your exercise of a Constitutional Right.
That’s a real problem.
“I do not trust a politician to set training standards in good faith.
I am not an advocate of Constitutional Carry, I am all for background checks on CCW.”
Constotutional Carry is the ONLY way to ensure that politicians and Fascists (but I repeat myself) can not interfere with a Right.
The moment you accede to “background checks”, you concede to a process whose requirements can be changed at whim to filter out any group of people the politicians want to hold power over.