My favorite <snicker> Low Fat Patriot attended the Armed Restore the Constitution rally at Greensboro and came back with his usual load of BS renewed. I did get branded as collectivist ann another member got tagged as waffle and made a disparaging comment about his mother (classy).

So what are these Threepers after? They seem to make no bones about wanting a Civil War which leads me to believe that they have no fucking idea what a Civil War looks like. I am guessing in their minds all wars are clean affairs in which good guys win, all bad guys die and they get to schtump the blond with the prodigious frontal protuberances while sipping their favorite alcoholic beverage. Civil  War must have the additional appeal of being a “neighborly” war where they can go home after 5 pm, soak in the jacuzzi with a beer firmly clutched in their hands while commenting on the points…er… body count they obtained during the day and the availability of fresh parking at the local mall after their raids.

Unfortunately Civil wars, as somebody has pointed out, are rather uncivil. And please, do not compare military service in a war zone with being involved in a civil war unless you are a 200+ year old Civil War Veteran (If you are, I do wanna know the secret of your longevity, email me.) Civil wars have no rules, no fronts, no back home support, no JAG, no tribunals worth a damn (Anybody check lately the great advancements of the Balkan War Crimes Tribunals?) Nothing will screw your brain faster than realizing the guy you have known for x amount of years who lives next door and you shared BBQs and carpools with is intent on raping your wife, slashing the throats of your kids and practice buck skinning on your hide.

I am no speaking out of a theoretical-book-read collection of essays here. My family has lived through several of these shindigs and I personally went through a couple of honest to God Third World temporary suspensions of morals, laws and civility to leave a nasty taste in the mouth. I have sat down with survivors of the Spanish Civil War that after much coaching, opened up just a bit about what they saw, had to do and even the niceties of living in a concentration camp.

Now that I mention the Spanish Civil War, I realize that it is a good parallel. Many people from many countries went to Spain in the 1930’s with eyes bright & full of illusions of justice and fight for the right cause (defined of course alongside the lines of Trotskysim, Fascism, Stalinism, Anarchism and whatever -ism was able to pay his/her fare to join the war and called themselves the true revolutionaries/patriots/comrades, etc.) These people wished for war to prove that their own little intellectual theories were right. They wanted a revolution not for the sake of the People but to buttress their egos, to thumb their noses and the conventionalism or simply because if was fashionable then.

Of course violence has a nasty way to smack the stars out of naive eyes.  Those who could, left in a hurry and the unlucky were buried. Those hungry for power stayed and wreaked havoc on the population and when the Fascist finally won, what was left was a country so destroyed that a massive migration ensued to the Americas. Spain did not recover and became a somewhat free country till the 1970s and only after Franco died.

Unknown Spanish City. Probably Guernica by the damage.
Refugees fleeing
Refugees fleeing

Tom Mann Anti Facist group (British in search of fun with guns)
Members of the Legion Condor from Nazi Germany posing with General Franco.
Members of the Legion Condor from Nazi Germany posing with General Franco.
Spanish kids hidding from the Luftwaffe
Spanish kids hiding from the Luftwaffe
And the iconic photo of the Spanish Civil War.
And the iconic photo of the Spanish Civil War.

This is my history, my background. The story of my kin and of their kids they never had and who I never knew because they died and were never able to have a family.

And that some wannabes dressed up like overgrown G.I. Joes think that Civil War is some sort of cool shit is just repulsive. Plus they have the gonads to say they are “restoring the Constitution” but seek to eliminate or silence those who disagree. Sort of weird interpretation of the Bill of Rights if you ask me.

End Of Rant. We return to our regular programming.

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By Miguel.GFZ

Semi-retired like Vito Corleone before the heart attack. Consiglieri to J.Kb and AWA. I lived in a Gun Control Paradise: It sucked and got people killed. I do believe that Freedom scares the political elites.

27 thoughts on “Time to control your boys before shit hits the fan. (Part 2)”
  1. I got a link for this, and wondered why the layout looked familiar. Scrolled back a few pages and there it was: your previous screed attacking anyone who thinks the NRA is less than perfect.

    At that point the Light shone and the Angels sang.

    1) Your antagonist is not a Threeper despite his claims.
    2) His douchiness outweighs yours by only a little bit.
    3) The pair of you probably deserve each other.
    4) You’ve absorbed enough of the elisions and half-truths of the gun control crowd to be able to use the same kind of technique on others.

  2. Methinks this lad doth protest too much. I agree with George – this blogger obviously likes to over-generalize, and appears to be incapable (or simply chooses not to) of seeing the forest for the trees.

  3. I think you have the threepers wrong. From what I have read they are not trying to incite a civil war, they are trying to prevent one. However, just as our founders were pushed into a corner where the only choices they had were to fight for their liberty, or become slaves to an oppressive government, the modern day threepers are only stating what their line in the sand is. Our government has pushed and pushed and whittled away at our liberties while the vast majority of Americans sit around with their heads up their backside. They don’t understand their rights, and they honestly don’t care. The threepers only want government off their backs and are willing to fight to ensure that their remaining liberties are not taken from them.

    Damn man, you gotta take a stand at some point in time or else you may as well just drop your drawers, bend over, and let anyone have their way with you.

  4. I just want to be left alone by criminals and goverment. But guess what? The goverment filed a lawsuit AGAINST the people of ARIZ with a friend of the court Mexico. The US goverment is refusing to enforce the law and help a state from forgein criminal invaders. Will someone please help us. I vote, I write, I call but no one listens. The US goverment is allowing a mexican drug lord put a price on a Sherriff head and then trying to stop him from enforcing the law. They also side with the drug lords who have courpted the mexican goverment. Just what else is the goverment doing. No I do NOT want a civil war but please batman help us. Look to the sky the bat signal is out. Where are you. What do we do. Oh yea 1.5 trillion or so more debt in a year. We have failed. I am done and I feel better. We are doomed. It is somone elses turn to run the world. Ha Ha Ha

  5. George, your 4th point was quite insightful. After parusing this blog a bit I realized that there was something about this guys screed that just didn’t sit right with me no matter how much he protested that he loved guns and liberty and then I read your comment and it all made sense. It seems that Miguel has learned all too well the lessons of his purported enemy and uses those tactics with abandon against those who are supposed to be on his side. It would appear that his native country didn’t allow for dissenting opinions and neither does he. Now he can even verbally abuse others without repercussion or fear because he is allowed to own a gun in this country. Funny how some who were on the receiving end of collectivist oppression take on the airs of their oppressors when given the chance rather than relish in the freedom.

  6. Those that want to “restore the Constitution” want to “silence those who disagree” and start a Civil War?

    You’re an ignorant little man.

  7. NHR said:
    I think you have the threepers wrong. From what I have read they are not trying to incite a civil war, they are trying to prevent one.

    This is posted at the Sipsey Street Irregulars Blog.
    “All politics in this country now is just dress rehearsal for civil war.” — Billy Beck, August 2009.

    To me that’s ’nuff said. I do hope we never have to go to arms and I will go as far as possible to achieve a peaceful solution without going Neville Chamberlain. But what the 3Per message is saying in the mouths and actions of members is that they wanna play Rambo. It might not be original thought, but it is the one being spread. That is why the title is Time to control your boys before shit hits the fan.

    George Said:
    “Scrolled back a few pages and there it was: your previous screed attacking anyone who thinks the NRA is less than perfect.”
    George, exaggerating a bit aren’t we? They have screwed up and they will again, but seeking the elimination of the NRA for such mistakes in exchange for groups that have achieved exactly ZERO is somewhat stupid.

    RegT; MeTooMeeToo?

    fred said: “I just want to be left alone by criminals and goverment. But guess what? The goverment filed a lawsuit AGAINST the people of ARIZ with a friend of the court Mexico. The US goverment is refusing to enforce the law and help a state from forgein criminal invaders…. and a bunch other stuff.

    And the solutions is going hot? Perhaps attacking a Federal building so they take it seriously? Have you visited your representatives how many times in your life? Have you voted all the times you could or only those you remembered-cared-did not interfered with some other activity? Did you knocked on doors, passed pamphlets, spoke with people on the street, etc? It is hard to do all these things yet resolution by civil war is somehow more achievable?

    Stefan said: “Miguel has learned all too well the lessons of his purported enemy and uses those tactics with abandon against those who are supposed to be on his side”
    There is no honor in fighting stupid. And anybody wishing unnecessary death upon innocent people is not on my side or the side of Most Americans.

    “Real Men work their differences out face to face. Anything else is just nonsense”
    This dovetails with this one in the other post:

    Mike Vanderboegh Said

    – Mike Vanderboegh
    The alleged leader of a merry band of Three Percenters.”

    Mr. Idjit should know by now. He is a faithful follower and reader of Mr. Vanderboegh. I expect fireworks sometime today at our little forum and more to come at the next match.

    And you are all welcome to post any and all thoughts you have.

  8. Miguel,
    It is evident that your roots in America are not very deep. No offense, it’s just obvious. Mine go down to Plymouth Rock (and no, my family left New England when they starting going all Commie in the 19th C.)

    Point being this: there is nothing wrong in sovereign citizens to tell their hirelings what to do and what will happen in lieu of those instructions. Recall the New Englanders were always self-governing. They never had a king or a duke or a poobah and the War began when England tried to impose themselves for the first time in the 18th C.

    It is an American’s God-given right to speak his mind and even rattle a sabre or two because damn it!, that’s what happens when employees delude themselves into thinking they are the master.

    Please study American history. My family history is every bit as bloody as yours and I relish the thought of bloodshed no more than you or any sane man. But if you are determined to live while your opponent is determined to kill — guess what? YOU LOSE.

    As the Huddled Masses migrated to my beloved America, they took much of their peasant ways and peasant submissiveness with them. Such ambition as they had was sublimated into organized crime and petty “precinct” politics.

    Authentic Americans do not bluff — they say what they are going to do and they do it, much the way our Immigrant Ruling Class tells us (listen to gun moll Pelosi some time… right out of the Godfather and Palermo, no?)

    Cutting deals and avoiding strife is not the stuff of Freedom – it is a bargain with one’s master.

    Just saying — and trying to make a difficult subject understandable. My apologies if I fail in that goal. It’s not something easily put in to words – “it’s an American thing”.

  9. I have done much writing on the philosophical failings of the Three Percenters. I do not care to retread that ground here.

    I don’t think anyone, myself and I’m guessing Miguel included, believes that waging war on an illegitimate, criminal or totalitarian government is unjustified. The Declaration of Independence is the blueprint for a just revolution. The primary difference between threepers and the rest of us is they imagine we’re currently living under the same injuries and usurptations today, and will call blind, traitorous, judenrat, whatever, anyone who dares to challenge their wild assumptions.

    We still have an elected Government. If we the people aren’t happy with our government, we are free to change it. We are free to advocate to change it. We are free to persuade our neighbors, friends, strangers on the internet, to change it without any interference from those in charge. You are going to see that come November. The question I have for the Three Percent is what they are currently doing to that end, short of standing on their soapboxes and shaking their rifles angrily? And really, how many have participated in republican (small r) politics beyond just bitching loudly on the Internet and maybe occasionally writing a nutty rant to your reps?

    There’s no need to prepare for a civil war. It’s not coming. If you provoke one, the duly elected representatives of “we the people” are going to call forth more power than you can imagine to crush you like an empty can of cheap beer. Our government can change peacefully, and “we the people” are ready for change — not Obama’s false change, but real change. Change I don’t think those in Washington are going to like very much. You can sense that everywhere if you were knocking on doors, making phone calls, and going places freedom loving Americans congregate and talking to them. But are you? I find it hard to believe you’d be so pessimistic about things if you were.

    I should take that back. I think we are going to have a revolution. But it’ll be the same kind of revolution we’ve had many times in this country. The kind of revolution that happens when the people want to go in a different direction, and vote for it. You can say “Well, Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for lunch.” Well, when “we the people” vote to eat you, give me a call. Until then it’s time to pitch in, and change this peacefully.

  10. Sebastian, a few quotes for you as I am not all that eloquent:

    “A man is none the less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.” – Lysander Spooner

    “The principle that the majority have a right to rule the minority, practically resolves all government into a mere contest between two bodies of men, as to which of them shall be masters, and which of them slaves; a contest, that — however bloody — can, in the nature of things, never be finally closed, so long as man refuses to be a slave.” – Lysander Spooner

    “Our constitutions purport to be established by ‘the people,’ and, in theory, ‘all the people’ consent to such government as the constitutions authorize. But this consent of ‘the people’ exists only in theory. It has no existence in fact. Government is in reality established by the few; and these few assume the consent of all the rest, without any such consent being actually given.” – Lysander Spooner

    Apparently you believe as long as the majority votes for something it is justified. That is the very mentality which has led us down the path to tyranny and the reason we find ourselves in this predicament today. If you vote to require CCW’s for everyone does that mean it is moral and just to jail or kill me if I refuse to ask permission from your cronies to carry a gun for protection? Of course it doesn’t. Either you believe that men are free to live their lives or they are serfs who need to ask permission for everything. I am tired of all of the apologists such as yourself telling me that I must obey your rules, even though I am harming no one, just because I was outvoted. Which side are you really on, that of the tyrant or of freedom?

  11. Redleg:

    There are certain things I don’t believe a majority ought to be able to vote for. But in order to justify armed resistance, those things would need to be pretty awful. Why? Because civil wars are pretty awful, and there’s no guarantee that what you end up with in the end is better than that which you destroyed. Our example of revolution is quite unique in the history of mankind. Generally speaking, it doesn’t turn out too well, and I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that I wouldn’t necessarily have faith that a lot of the people I see talking about civil war today are the types that are going to be the next generation of founders rather than thugs who will seek reprisals on anyone who dares disagree with them.

    The big problem the Threeper philosophy is the question of what you are going to do with the people who voted this government into power? These politicians weren’t imposed on us. We voted for them! Maybe this particular bunch in the grips of fear during a financial crisis, but we still pulled the lever and punched the ballot. What are you going to replace the Government with? You can’t just say you’ll smash this one and then not offer up a vision for what you’d replace it with. Anything that smacks of Democracy is going to have to face the problem of the fact that this, for better or worse, is the Government “we the people” elected. The answers to that question are not pleasant. If you do nothing, they will vote for big government again. It might take a decade or so, but we’ll be right back to where we were at some point. You have to do something about those people. What, in the Threeper philosophy, are you going to do?

    It’s not that I don’t realize the problems with democratic governance. Our founders certainly understood and distrusted the masses to always do the right thing. We can have arguments over what constitutes legitimacy for a government, but most of them are academic. In any democratic system of governance, legitimacy really boils down to popular sovereignty, and I’m not sure what other philosophical construct really works when it hits the hard truth of reality.

    All government requires some surrendering of your natural freedom. It’s the price we pay for living peacefully with other people. We do not surrender all of them, obviously, but things like your natural right of retribution, of punishing someone who wronged you, are almost wholly bequeathed to the state in civil governments. People are born free, but we surrender some of our rights to the government, as you read in a great many of the founders’ writings.

  12. Miguel-I wonder, did you just go to Sipsey Street and cut and paste the first inflamitory quote you could find? If you are like me, a regular reader of Mike Vanderboegh’s writings, you would know that he does not want a civil war, but he also isn’t afraid of one either.

    Far too few people understand the value placed upon our rights and our liberty by the founders of this nation and those who do are considered whacko’s and nut jobs because they are willing to take a stand to defend them. It may seem to those who care more about trivial matters that we are just itching to start a civil war. Not so. We only want out government to stop infringing upon our rights. Patrick Henry said, Give me liberty or give me death. Those words ring just as true for us in 2010 as they did when he first uttered them. He was a patriot and we are nut jobs seeking civil war.

    If you can, tell me what makes us any different than those who took a stand against the British in 1775.

  13. “Miguel-I wonder, did you just go to Sipsey Street and cut and paste the first inflamitory quote you could find?”

    Yep. That is the message it transmits and you just agreed.

  14. Sorry, Miguel. Logic is obviously not your forte. Ad hominem attacks, yes. But not logic and reason. Your responses define you.

  15. I would agree that most rational people would not wish a civil war on this country. It’s not something I want my children and my wife to live through. I am a regular reader of Sipsey Street and a fellow “Threeper” and I don’t believe that Mike is trying to incite civil war.

    That said, the idea of handing out pamphlets and visiting the moron elected to “represent” us is extremely naive. These people have their own agendas and care not what we have to say. If they did, there wouldn’t have been Obamacare, endless rounds of QE (stimulus), a government takeover of GM and on and on. The system is rotten from the inside and will never change. It matters not which party we elect, we will take it in the kiester. The system is so corrupt that a regular person with the real intent of changing things has no chance. Unless you have millions, it ain’t happening. Those who do have millions already have their own agendas. You don’t get that rich without one. Our elected officials no longer even give the illusion of representing our interests.

    The fact of the matter is that the average American is more interested in Dancing with the Stars, American Idol or some other inane nonsense and as long as the cable tv still works and there’s food to eat, they don’t care. When almost HALF of all taxpayers in the US pay NO federal income taxes whatsoever, how can you expect that things will ever change.

    Here’s the rub. The real producers in this society, and I proudly consider myself amongst them, don’t mind paying the freight. We honor our obligations, but when the government starts encroaching on our freedoms with endless legislation, we start to get resentful. Every insult becomes magnified. Maybe you haven’t realized it Miguel, but folks are just plain fed up being dumped on. Most of us really just want to “live and let live”, but many folks are reaching the point of saying “no more”. They’re not advocating violence, but rather saying that TPTB really need to wake up and listen to us. If they’re a little afraid of us, I won’t lose any sleep over it.

  16. I have found that it is next to impossible to get certain people to see your point of view. I don’t ask that they agree with me, just admit that they see my point of view.

    It seems that Miguel is one of those people who, no matter what is said, is going to believe that anyone who stands up for their God-given unalienable rights is a foaming at the mouth nutcase who is just waiting for the chance to go out and shoot someone.

    Just remember, it is for your rights as well that we are fighting to preserve, even if you could care less about them.

  17. G3Ken: You think I am not fed up with bad legislation and politicians that care more about their pockets than the people they are supposed to represent? You think no matter what, I am breaking an average of 3 Federal Laws by just getting up in the mornings and going to work just because legislation has become so entangled nobody knows what’s in it? That my hard earned monies go to absolutely undeserving projects and people?
    But again, Have we lost all hope in the election process? Has it really become irrelevant to the point of needing to take up arms? No it has not. But what we have done is stop giving a damn about it and selected idiots get elected because we rather spend that time doing other things or do not wanna be bothered about it. I’ll say it again, it is easier to visit a blog, post some “Me Too!” comments than actually seek for a candidate, examine him up and down, volunteer to work for him or her, knock on doors, do voter registration and all the myriad of things to have the right person elected.
    Having a poor voter turnout and having crooked people go into office is not to be blamed o DC or the politicians, it is all our fault. I wonder how many of you (As in the 3%s) actually went balls to the wall in this aspect but I rather suspect that a very small number did.
    And you seriously expect me to believe that you guys will undertake something as serious as facing the full power that the Federal Government can bring upon when you can’t get out of the couch and work for the politician that you like?

  18. Miguel,

    Right up until the first shots were fired at Lexington and Concord the colonists were not planning to revolt, although there may very well have been those among their ranks who wished for one.

    The attempt of the British to disarm them was their line in the sand and they fought back, sparking the powderkeg and starting the revolution.

    That is the same viewpoint of the Threepers. For the most part none of them want a civil war, but they are prepared for it nonetheless.

    As another quote states on their webpage, You don’t want a civil disturbance, then stop disturbing us.

  19. No it has not. But what we have done is stop giving a damn about it and selected idiots get elected because we rather spend that time doing other things or do not wanna be bothered about it. I’ll say it again, it is easier to visit a blog, post some “Me Too!” comments than actually seek for a candidate, examine him up and down, volunteer to work for him or her, knock on doors, do voter registration and all the myriad of things to have the right person elected.
    This! And it doesn’t take a whole lot to make a difference. Politicians respond very positively to the possibility of volunteers. Volunteers are something they can’t get enough of. If you’re just starting out, at a state level office, money is often in short supply as well. Volunteers are important because they can help them turn out votes.
    One thing that’s really knocked us for a loop like a sack of bricks is how quickly we’ve become known by the GOP folks as “the gun people,” and we’re valued volunteers. Bitter, particularly, is known for crunching through phone lists like there’s no tomorrow. They always ask her to help man the call center.
    But once we refused to help a GOP candidate who had a “C” NRA grade. Not good on the issue. We made it clear we only help pro-gun candidates… and that is our issue. Last time I talked to that particular rep we refused, she spoke of understanding she needed to get her grade higher. Coincidence? Maybe. She feeding me a load of bull? Maybe. But if she does improve her grade, that’s one more vote NRA’s lobbyist might be able to count on when a bill is up for a vote. This is just in a Second Amendment context, but pick your pet issue, and you can do the same thing.
    I keep saying politics is as much perception as it is reality. Politicians don’t actually have to know you can drive votes and money to them. They only have to think you can. This is one area perception is more important than reality. A few weeks ago we went to a fundraiser for our State Rep, who’s rated well but still doesn’t have much of a record. We got some food, had a drink, and left. The important thing wasn’t so much donating the big bucks, or bringing a million people (though, those would help), but being seen. Our rep saw “the gun people” at his fundraiser. That’s driving perception.
    But I suspect if you boil it down, most of these three percent guys are just so blinded by anger at the establishment, they don’t have anything to offer except lashing out. No politician will ever be good enough. They will not strive for incremental improvement. They will not try to influence, to change minds, or manipulate the people in power. They will decry as dishonorable and dirty people those who mingle with the establishment. And at the end of the day, the only thing they will have accomplished is feeling better about themselves. That’s great if it does. Good for you. But don’t expect other people to be impressed.

  20. Miguel, I think your response to my comments are rational and make some sense, You asked this question:

    But again, Have we lost all hope in the election process? Has it really become irrelevant to the point of needing to take up arms? No it has not.

    In response, I’d say that Claire Wolfe said it best when she stated that “America is at that awkward stage; it’s too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.”

  21. So……..Miguel, Have you REALLY read at Sipsey in depth? To use your Civil War Analogy, what part about MVB’s “no Ft. Sumpter’s” did you not understand?

  22. hbbill, The post is not what the site says but what those that call themselves Three Percenters portray out there in the real world. There is a whole lot of people in this area whose only contact and point of reference is an idiot who is anti LEO, does not tolerate opposing views (He calls them traitors), and is itching for a civil war.
    Is that what the movement is about? At this stage I really don’t care one way or the other. The majority of the responses have served to confirm my initial examination. If the majority of the responses were in the “Hey, he is not one of us. He is a nutjob extremist. Here is what we stand for…” And even if I don’t agree with what you tell me, I would have gladly printed an apology and a correction. But so far I have not seen anything that resembles much of that which is something also typical of Mr. Idjit: if you ever had a position that deviates from whatever gospel he follows, you are not worthy of conversion. Forget about trying to bring people into the fold presenting the points you want to make. How many people we know that began as anti gun and they later converted to pro second amendment because you or somebody took the time to explain things and take him shooting? Mr. Idjit’s position would be similar to
    “Are you in favor of the Second Amendment? No? FUCK YOU!”
    And gents, that is not the way to garner support.
    And I know that he is not the only one out there. And other idjits like him are the ones that are becoming the example that people remember.

    This has been oodles of fun, but it seems to be running a wee bit long. Any other thoughts you have and want to share, email me or you can post it here. I really don’t know when and if I will reply to any post, I will try my best with emails .

    And thanks for dropping by and sharing your thoughts.

  23. Generally speaking, quoting from Lysander Spooner is not a good way to get people to think you’re NOT crazy. El oh el.

    It’s also worth pointing out that Mike V is pretty cagey – he wouldn’t do anything on his site that could be construed as inciting civil war. However, Miguel is spot on in that Mike’s supporters are less than temperate in their choice of words rather frequently.

  24. i’m the guy he’s referring to in the post. i did in fact write the passages he quoted. there are in fact concise but a shade out of context. it had to do with me getting him removed as forum moderator for our pistol club. i know miguel personally. i have for almost 10 years now. miguel for the most part is ok. that is, if you go along with what he believes to be correct and allow him to direct you. he is truly without question a petty tyrant. i can line up more than a few persons that have known him for more than a few years and can attest that what i’m saying is true. he has absolutely no understanding of what a threeper is nor what tyranny is in general.

  25. Alan, you are welcome to invite and “line up” the people you mention and to face me at any match.
    You never understood that the forum is: 1) Private Ownership and subject to rules and regulations which you signed on in order to participate. 2) Posts that were contrary to the agreed terms were deleted, not only yours but everybody else’s. 3) You don’t understand either freedom or tyranny. One came to you for free and the other you never experienced. 4) You are still in the club but by the grace of God and the fact we are more forgiving than we probably should. If there is somebody who does not respect anybody’s opinion, freedoms and rights is you.
    Hell, we even opened a political forum just for you and you can’t get it moving! Then again your greatest input is to post links from everybody else and not much of your own creativity…if any.

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