TCK, one of the responders on my post about Democratic Candidates for President, made this comment:
The only thing Trump did wrong was not marching soulless inhuman demonrat filth into mass graves where it belongs.
My response was a simple, “Not cool.” I felt that anything I had said in response would put me in danger of being seen as “the dick” that we mostly try to avoid. I want to talk about why this comment bothers me so much.
My kneejerk response was of this:
There are lots of ways for us to express ourselves. Some I find distasteful, and I just walk away. You guys like to swear a lot more than I do, and use invectives that I think are inappropriate. They do not, however, come even close to the line of, “Don’t be a dick.” Whether TCK intended it or not, the words they used immediately brought images to mind of people being marched into mass graves… or into ovens. With current political climes being what they are, the thought seized my brain. Hence, not cool. So very not cool.
But WHY is it not cool? Why isn’t that statement one I just walk away from, like so many others? After all, I didn’t even flinch over “demorats,” which is something that normally makes me cringe (as you regulars know so well). It’s because I have come to love this place. I talk here about things I can’t talk about anywhere else. I learn from you, and I get the impression that you all learn from me, even when (or perhaps especially when) we disagree.
I worry that this type of comment, quoted in a public forum elsewhere, is enough to get GFZ tossed on the burn pile, banned on places like Google, and avoided even by good quality Right folk. The implication of killing off the competition, the innuendo that leads one to think of concentration camps and death to everything Not Us, is a big deal in the States right now. I will be very honest, and say that I really don’t want to be associated with a site that doesn’t find that kind of implication offensive.
It’s a random comment, probably made off the cuff. I doubt TCK intended to give the impression that they wanted to actually murder anyone not of their belief. But I don’t KNOW. Their follow up response didn’t make it any more clear, to me at least. And so I’m left wondering. Is TCK actually suggesting that we should commit genocide against people who don’t agree with the Right? Are they saying that we should kill those who label themselves Left or Democrat? Or was it a figure of speech, done to evoke an emotional response?
Why does it matter? For some who come to this site, it really doesn’t. This is one of a handful of places you visit, and what people on the outside think doesn’t matter at all. While I don’t care if people think I’m posting to an alt-right site (hell, maybe I am… the definition is so shifty that one can barely tell), I DO care if people think I’m posting to a pro-Nazi site, or a place that advocates for unnecessary violence against any who disagree with a political view.
I don’t even care so much for myself, per se. I care because it’s the kind of thing that gets you banned in so many other places. I do go to FB and TikTok and Instagram and those other sites, for a variety of reasons. I sometimes carry out messages and quotes from GFZ because they are so insightful that I feel like they must be shared (with proper attribution of course). If I can’t do that, if this becomes another insular community with no ability to interact with the rest of the internet, then it loses so much of what makes it special.
Does this mean I think we need to cowtow to the public? Not entirely. I try not to get my panties in a wad over too much. The few times I’ve had issues, I’ve walked away. Until this one. This one I brought up to AWA because I thought it had gone over the line, and I was looking for guidance. What he said is between he and I, but he suggested I write about it, and so I have.
I don’t want to kill those who don’t believe as I do. I don’t want to associate with those who do believe that. I don’t want to censure those who believe differently. I want, in fact, to learn from people of differing beliefs. It’s the only way for me to grow. When I talk to most of you, I feel a door is opened. I may or may not like what’s on the other side, but it’s an open door, and you graciously allow me to learn from you. TCK slammed a door in my face, figuratively speaking, and denied me (or anyone else) a view of what lay beyond. What was left was … well, the picture I posted above, quite frankly. An open door would have been much better, because it would have left space for questioning, for learning, for expanding knowledge. Now, though, I’m left muttering to myself.
It’s the kind of commentary that makes me want to walk away. That puts me in a crap position, because I really don’t WANT to walk away. But I find myself questioning whether it’s safe. If that makes any sense. sigh
Hagar the Frustrated
comments like that can and will be used against us… I fully get the sentiment, many of us can feel this way but not say it out loud , as the “other side” makes comments like this about us. however, as hard as it is We the People must be the bigger ones in this fight…. “the walls have ears” and are always listening..
It’s an admission the person saying that kind of thing doesn’t really believe in liberty, AND has sacrificed their humanity. Free people persuade each other — and we damned well know most of the left are just uninformed or malinformed. But persuasion takes work, so too many people — on both sides — just throw their hands up and declare “kill them all”.
Thank you. Those are the words I was looking for. “It’s an admission the person saying that kind of thing doesn’t really believe in liberty…” I often say to my Left leaning friends that I disagree with what they’re saying, but strongly support their right to say it. They often don’t get it, and that’s sad, but *I* get it, and that’s what’s important.
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As for persuading, I don’t necessarily do that. Sometimes, yes. Most times? Nope. I live my life. If people ask how I got where I am (and I do get that, as I work with the public from time to time), I get to tell them it’s because I think rationally instead of emotionally. I use my emotions rather than being used by them. Well, most of the time. 🙂 I prefer to be a living example of what to do (and occasionally what not to do). I think it has more effect than proselytizing.
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And we can’t EVER say “kill em all”. We just can’t. And by we, I mean everyone. I very carefully and surgically remove anyone who talks that way from my life. I can’t think of a single person who’s said something of that kind, who has been allowed back into my life. That’s a line I do not cross, and I do not associate with those who do. Sure, sometimes I *feel* that way. But I never say it.
I often say to my Left leaning friends that I disagree with what they’re saying, but strongly support their right to say it. They often don’t get it, and that’s sad, but *I* get it, and that’s what’s important.
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I read this, and my first instinct was astonishment. What’s not to get? It’s clearly understandable: “I think what you’re saying is wrong, but you shouldn’t be silenced for it; I support your right to say it anyway.”
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But then I realized, many of my Left-leaning acquaintances* also don’t get it. I know a few hard-liners on the Right, too, who think that Leftist speech should be banned. It is sad that so many would stifle others’ Constitutionally-protected rights — Right #1, no less — simply because they disagree.
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* – I say “acquaintances” because I can’t honestly say “friends” anymore. Not because I don’t like them or want to associate, chat, or hang out with them despite our different political beliefs, but because they refuse to associate with me because of our disparate beliefs. It’s a fairly recent thing, too; since Trump was first elected the division along ideological lines has increased. These are people I worked with and spent off-hours with — friends, colleagues, co-workers, some of whom I’ve known for literally decades (including a couple going all the way back to middle school) — who suddenly threw all that shared history away because of politics.
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It’s not like we didn’t already disagree politically; it’s just that before we could put politics aside to get stuff done or have a good time. Now, I just don’t see that happening. It’s sad, but I’m sure I’m not alone in experiencing this, and that saddens me even more.
@Rob
Well said. I find there are many that are not so different from the authoritarianism of “the left” in the 2A ranks; it is simply ok for them and not “the left” because they are right and it is their side.
I get what you’re saying, curby. Sometimes, I just shut up, too. This time, I didn’t… not because it was on my post, but because I felt that strongly about it. It was enough that I actually spoke personally with AWA, which I don’t normally do. We discuss stuff but I try not to complain. I am aware of the fact that I’m not “in your camp” and I try to keep that in mind and act respectfully. It’s not MY living room, and so I need to act like I’m a guest. Thanks for the words.
While it is an extreme view, how is it different that the left wanting to camp and kill folks smart enough not to drink the covid Kool-Aid? It’s not a bit different.
I myself, prescribe to kill monsters first time and every time, for the street rats and pedophile types, and fair, 3 minute tribunals followed by hanging, or crucifixion, for blue collar types like lawyers, judges, lawgivers, military traitors, medical people who killed during covid and LEOs who have proved they are usurpers of Justice and Liberty.
Dana, it’s not all that different at all. Hence why I don’t like it. You seem to think I want to allow someone on some side to do something. That is most definitely not the case. I am a firm believer that a good rule MUST apply to everyone. There cannot be nuanced rules.
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There is no case in which I suggest killing someone without due process, with one exception, and only one. If I caught someone sexually predating on a child, I suspect I would shoot first and ask questions later. This doesn’t mean I won’t defend me and mine, but I am NOT judge, jury, or executioner unless someone presses me. If it isn’t a real emergency, then I am not interested in taking away someone’s right to due process. Even when it sometimes seems unfair.
I fully understand that we need to police our own extremists. If only one side wishes to lock their opponents in concentration camps, then they look like the bad guys to the undecided.
I think a lot of Democrats and “Progressives” need to be in secure mental health facilities because they are straight up crazy but I think we also need a ward for the right wing crazies too. TCK illustrates the horseshoe by having more in common with a purple haired leftist screaming to execute Trump voters than the GFZ writers.
It is consistent with the principles of free speech to lower the ban hammer on those who threaten the commons, since they are still free to speak in more amenable fora like Storm Front.
I have no interest in banning people. I realize that there may come a time when the admins (and I am *not* an admin, folks) may choose to silence someone, but that’s not my decision. I carefully didn’t ask AWA to ban TCK. I asked AWA whether TCK had broken The One Rule (aka Don’t be a dick). But yeah, I get the sentiment.
Hagar, well said, and my reaction was just like yours — hence the “thumb down”.
Re “the left does it too” — indeed, but that’s a good reason to stay on the high ground. If unbiased observers can easily see that one side frequently acts like a d**k and the other side does not, that helps the good side.
There are some moments when staying on the high ground hasn’t done the Right any good. But this (imo) is not one of those cases.
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AWA has talked to me several times about moments when taking the high ground ended up doing more harm than good. It’s why people on the Right are more willing to be in your face these days. It’s why Trump is/was so popular, because he said what so many were thinking. That’s a tough spot to be in. To weigh one’s actions, every single time, to decide whether those actions should continue on the high road, or if a momentary dip into the sludge pool will do more good… that’s really hard. It’s walking on egg shells. It’s a place that the Left has been forcing upon the Right for a long time.
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But “they did it first” is never EVER a good reason for doing something.
Comments and discussions about eradication of the left are unpleasant, unsettling and for normal civil people something preferably avoided. That’s the result of being part of a civil society. Unfortunately for us our opposition is simply not bound by such restraints, moral or legal. They have only one rule. WIN! By whatever method required. And that includes mass murder ad genocide. The left absolutely counts on our inherently civilized outlook that makes the notion of violence distasteful. Because they have no qualms about using violence. That fact means if we don’t reassess our values and adjust them to address this fundamental difference they win. Automatically. Remember, the left wants us to be abhorred by violence, they count on it. Because they aren’t bothered by it in the least, as long as THEY aren’t the ones targeted.
I put my other comment up before reading the others, so wanted to mention that you seem to have put together what I was trying to convey in a much better (and less angry) manner.
Do I hope there is way to save America that is less extreme than ‘kill literally all of them,’ yes I do (although I suppose I can’t blame anyone for not believing me on that, I’m not the best at putting my thoughts into words even when I’m calm). However, the simple fact is that is no non-violent method of dealing with monsters who are ALREADY engaged in a nation-wide campaign of persecution, kidnapping, TORTURE, and an ever increasing number of COLD BLOODED MURDERS. Not a single one.
Thank you for taking the time to reply on this post. It is appreciated. Greatly. I actually agree that there are monsters out there that are deserving of death. Hell, J.Kb. has a running set of articles talking about the pedo-chipper series. Yes, if you are caught diddling a child, I think that deserves the death penalty.
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At issue was perception. Anytime “our side” makes a statement that can be taken so out of context that it could be used to paint us badly, it is worthy of not.
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Hagar asked me if you had broken The Rule. I read your comment and told Hagar, “No, TCK has not broken The Rule”.
What you are talking about is exactly the problem with “so-called” social media.
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A comment like TCK’s, if said in person among friends and family, would be poorly received, and TCK would likely get enough negative feedback to know he should turn it down a bit.
However, get on socials… and dozens, perhaps even thousands of people will like the comment.
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Net result, TCK walks away thinking his ideas are correct, and widely supported.
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That is how extremists are made, how mass murderers are made, how the worst parts of human nature become commonplace.
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If TCK’s intent was to call for genocide, that is a problem. More realistically, he intended to say Trump should not have turned the other cheek as often as he did. He should not have tried to work with his haters are much as he did. Dismissing them would have been bad, but listening to them and letting them run free was worse.
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But… language is a funny thing, and “… marching them off to mass graves…” may not really be what TCK meant. Not literally, at least. Figuratively, maybe.
Would the Trump Presidency been more successful had he worked harder to shut down the Dems and the RINOs? Probably, but instead we got three years of a meaningless Russian collusion fantasy, two impeachments, and COVID overspending.
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I say… a bit more “making them walk the plank” figuratively would be good in US politics.
I also say calls for genocide, even figuratively, are in very poor taste.
There’s a Mike Tyson quote here somewhere: “Social media made y’all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it.”
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I don’t approve of wanton violence, but when people talked face-to-face, you had to mind your words and your tone or face consequences (not always getting punched in the face, but embarrassment, arguments, losing friends, etc.).
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There’s no consequences for spouting off extremist B.S. on social media, so nobody is learning how to police their own words.
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I don’t see how this ends well long-term.
From Ruby Ridge, to Waco, to the Tunnel of Terror, to the THOUSANDS of acts of kidnapping and torture in the years after, to all the atrocities in between, Democrats and their supporters have made it clear beyond all shadow of any shred of doubt that THEY are the ones who want to make that picture happen. What else am I to call them, if not monsters?
I guess Never Again doesn’t apply to conservatives.
AWA as Admin, there is absolutely no issue with you calling them monsters.
I waited to comment on this post. Wanted to reflect on it for a few days first,
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when I read TCK’s comment I knew from following his other posts that he was venting and did not take him literally. But I do get the concern over policing this excellent blog and all which it stands for. But that said, I had this thought, I wonder if the Jan. 6 spectators, who did not break laws, (cameras show they were invited in) but only moved with the general crowd peacefully and respectively, who are now serving lengthy prison sentences, would have rather been ‘marched off into mass graves’ than to suffer the most unjust judgments I’ve ever witnessed day after day after day for years and decades.
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Today I seriously doubt that the sides who wins the upcoming second civil war will march the losers off into mass graves, because they have replaced that type of political execution with, a more civilized, multi-decades prison sentence. Which today we now know to a moral certainty was completely unjust. It was so extremely unjust that the ones who imposed that injustice should be given the same exact, or worse, treatment than they imposed.
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Leftist don’t fight political wars the same way a conservative does, but conservatives need to learn how to if they want to ‘not experience’ something similar to being marched toward mass graves out by the landfill. Hell is coming for us all. Act accordingly.