And no, I am not gonna lay the blame entirely on the officers. They had a crappy job to do and did it. I will lay blame on politics and very probably a lack of proper training.
Quote from the 2010 NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report:
All NYPD service pistols are “double action only” (DAO), meaning they have a two‐stage trigger pull for each round fired (unlike single‐action weapons, which can be
“cocked,” resulting in a one‐stage trigger pull, which is smoother and easier). Additionally, all NYPD weapons are also modified to have a heavier‐than‐stock 12‐lb trigger pull; this diminishes the likelihood of unintentional discharges but also affects aiming.
A very hard trigger pull combined with fast firing will result in bullets missing its intended target and the powers that be knew. The idea that a gunsmithing solution is a substitute for good training is irresponsible. NYC will surely get sued by the victims and probably will lose big time. Unfortunately I doubt that the White Shirts will do the right thing and remove politics from firearms training.And if you had any doubts about the stupidity of politics in training, the following quote is also from the same report:
All officers who discharge their firearms are sent to a firearms‐retraining course, regardless of the circumstances of the discharge.
So even if the shooting was “good” the officer is forced to retrain and I can imagine that it should feel like they did something wrong even when they did not. It has to affect the officer no matter what that he is treated like he just shot the Pope.
Life Saving techniques cannot be left in the hands of politicians. But the chance that NYC Politicians actually will call Gun People and address the problems is right there with Mayor Bloomberg throwing his full support for National Concealed Carry tomorrow before noon.
Only 12#, I thought I read somewhere they were 17#, either way it’s a stupid ridiculous solution to a problem of training and restraint. I guess it was a good thing the shooter had a 1911, otherwise more people could’ve been hurt. You can’t pay me enough to own a 1911, I’ve seen and fired to many of them even consider this jam prone lousy design. Without a doubt the worst piece of shit John Moses Browning ever put to paper.
Factory trigger comes to NYPD at 12Lbs and they go heavier. I think it is 16 Lbs. Not even crappy revolvers have that trigger pull.
Blasphemy!
Blasphemy!
it’s a poor trades man who blames his ( or others ) tools
hence my comment about this on another of your posts yesterday..
First off: I personally can’t say enough GOOD about the 1911,,,, but then again, I know how to run them. To call the 1911 a POS and discredit JMB shows true colors I guess. Opinions are just like noses, everybody has one.
Secondly: I don’t care who you are, LEO or otherwise, NOBODY ignores the basic rule of KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND. There simply is no justification for such. But remember that typically most law enforcement agencies are more concerned with being politically correct than anything else. I suspect it is planned as such,,,,, after all if they taught officers to shoot well the department may find themselves holding responsibility for those well placed shots.
Those darn priorities!
That’s not true. There have been lots of people without noses.
Miguel, how about taking one for the team and letting us know what the anti’s are howling?
Dude, I just got home and had breakfast….. gimme a chance 🙂
OK, I checked their Facebook page. They were all foamy at the mouth and even announced that Pasha Bloomberg was about to speak. I imagine that is when it was announced that “some” civilians were injured by PD gunfire. After that silence till it was revealed that the gun was bought in Florida (ZOMG!) legally and somehow they linked Neil Amstrong with their desire to ban guns.
I swear their minds twist and turn more than them people from Cirque du Solei do with their bodies.
The nerve of that guy, buying a gun legally, 20 years ago in one state, then deciding to move. That’s some time to crime, of course in isn’t actually that much longer than the national average of 14 years. At least it will help bring that average up. And how is it they tied an American hero/legend to their gun control meme? I closed my FB account a couple of days ago, over the whole Brandon Raub thing, not that I could visit there pages anyway, having long ago been blocked for daring to bring some truth and reason to their so called “discussions”.
It’s kinda gone to hell, even before the IPO.
I’ll just relay what a friend told me after I explained it to him:
“In short, the NYPD are retarded.”
Also: Blaming the 1911 and the fact it is one of JMB’s worse designs is quite a bold statement, but then again I’ve heard similar from the numerous people who try to steer me into GLOCKs and only GLOCKs as my first and only handgun.
I can understand had you been say, an Imperial Army officer issued the Nambu Type 94…but…yeah
Not having any experience with any Glock I can neither recommend nor condemn them. Having owned 1911s, and firing many more, and having heard horror stories about yet even more I can safely say they are crap. You have to pay premium money for the chance of getting a half assed decent one, if by decent you accept that you will only ever be able to fire one type of ammunition semi-reliably. Having to give a new pistol to a gunsmith to get it to work like it should have out of the box is not my idea of a good pistol. Now, sit back and watch the fanboys flame me to death. I love getting their noses out of joint by simply reporting the facts. John Browning had many a brilliant designs, the 1911 was not one of them.
Or I can get a 400USD RIA and be done with it? I wouldn’t pass judgement on it until I’ve owned and shot with one. It’s the same with GLOCKs, although my first experience with them was less than stellar, I’m not gonna go out and proclaim that the GLOCK is the worse firearm ever designed (well, I hold that for the Type 94 but still) and I won’t let someone’s negativity about a firearm I’m considering as one of my firsts to influence it.
Besides, barring personal opinion, mind backing those claims? I’d also prefer to hear the same with other firearms once I’ve saved up a comfortable amount to even begin my search.
My hatred of 1911s has nothing to do with opinion, but owning, handling, and shooting many, very few of which functioned properly without at least the cost of the gun again in gunsmith and parts costs. I owned one, my father owned one, a friend of mine had a 1991, which is identical except it has 1991 stamped on it instead of 1911. The 1991 is the only one that functioned properly out of the box, as long as you consider only being able to shoot 230gr. round nose bullets acceptable. I do not, I shoot competition of varying types, and therefore use varying ammunition types, and 1911s only feed hard balls. I later got an E.A.A. Witness in .45ACP, it held more ammo (9+1), it fed everything I put into it (hollow points, round nose, semi-wad cutters), and every single time I pulled the trigger it went bang, and cost $400. I have spoken to many owners online and most have the same experiences I did. Here is the only one I could find that I personally spoke with, in fact I was the reason he wrote this post. As it says, it took many trips to the smith, and polishing, plus magazines, to just get it semi-reliable.
http://themillermeister.blogspot.com/2012/01/ria-question.html
all you have to do is search 1911 feed problems, and you will get thousands of similar stories.
Besides I never said that the 1911 was the worst pistol design ever. Only that it was John Browning’s worst design.
My experience with the 1911 dates to 1980, when I was 5. I began with my great grandfather’s 1927 1911. In thirty-five years of firing that arm, I have never experienced a stoppage. Nor have I experienced one with any other 1911 I have fired, including my current Springfield. Granddad taught me well from the get go.
My experience with Glocks began when my father purchased a G17 in 1986. To date I have experienced one stoppage. Unfortunately, I just do not shoot Glocks well.
With the CZ 75 that was my constant companion for ten years, I experienced one stoppage per 2,000 rounds.
Perhaps the problem in your case is not in the design, but in your use and handling of the arm.
I don’t know why all you fanboys always blame not being able to properly operate a 1911 for their feed problems. Do any of you really think it is that complicated a firearm to operate? My experience with them started around the same time as yours, except I was 6 in 1980. And I have yet to see more than 1 1911 or a clone there of that fed correctly out of the box. Mean while no other pistol I have ever fired has ever jammed.
Apparently you have never dealt with the Glock 36…
Switching to a 15# recoil spring seems to have helped, thankfully.
The police officers, when posed with a viable threat, did what is referred to as a Magazine Dump. In short, every round they had – they fired. If you or I did such a thing we’d be crucified, and rightfully so. One fires until the threat is eliminated, not the number of rounds in the magazine.
It goes back to training. Both LEOs and Military are way behind compared to civilians. This is specially hard to take with NYPD which was the home of Jim Cirillo.
Oh fucktard boy was harping on a different subject this evening. Some guy got himself arrested for carrying *gasp!* a machete through the conference zone and getting uppity and telling local PD to go piss up a rope when they told him to stop and hand it over, as well as resisting arrest when he refused to do so…
Fuckwits response was “So he gets arrested for having a machete. But if he had been carrying a semiautomatic handgun with a 33-round
magazine and spares that would have been perfectly legal and fine. Makes a ton of sense, doesn’t it?”
Sigh…he doesn’t mention that outside of a Glock 9mm that I know off…the ONLY size round for a pistol you can get a 30rd for is a goddamn .22! Sigh…
I think you replied in the wrong post…. LOL
I have no frigging idea how to move it. If you wanna repost it on the proper place, I’ll delete this one later
*facepalm* oops. sorry bout that miguel. go ahead and delete it since you did your own post on it. 🙂
First: the officers didn’t “magazine dump”. one fired 6 and the other fired 8 – 9, hardly a full mag. looking at the video the suspect drew quickly and the officers had to also draw and fire quickly. they are also trained to shoot multiple times, until the threat is stopped, and they did so. if you want to whine about someone or something, then gripe about the training standards.
Second: reports have it now that the suspect’s gun was a Star- a truly crappy Spanish copy of the venerable 1911. we hear now that the reason the suspect didn’t fire on the officers is this fine example of the gunmaker’s art jammed when he tried to shoot. given that he was facing not only the officers but also bystanders, these same citizens are lucky he was using such an awful pistol, else the injury count might be higher still.
a note on the 1911: it was designed before the advent of hollow point bullets. when fired with round nosed ammo of sufficient pressure ( much modern ball ammo is actually underpowered ) it performs quite well. hollow points, not so much as the feed angle is too steep. more modern iterations of the recipricating slide pistol, Glock, HK, Beretta, SIG, et al, are designed to feed HP ammo, with a more linear feed angle, and do much better. getting the 1911 to feed HP has had some decidedly mixed results.
The angle of the feed ramp has a good bit to do with the unreliability of the weapon. But the primary problem is with the feed ramp being two piece. With one piece one the frame, and the other on the barrel. Any time you have two pieces of metal meeting there is gap, and a strong likelihood of misalignment. The speed at which the round stripped off of the stack meeting the gap, and/or misalignment in the feed ramp amplifies any misalignment and causes the weapon to jam. I don’t know why John Browning didn’t design it with the entire ramp on the barrel, then there likely would have never been an issue. With a one piece feed ramp sticking down below the next round, when the barrel is cycling, there is no gap, or possibility of misalignment.
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